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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2015 19:46:02 GMT -6
I've been following the Eldar rumors pretty closely, and if you have as well you've noticed two things: - The rules seem unbalanced.
- The community is in an uproar.
Players are lighting up the forums and comment sections with hostility against GW for power creep, and unjustly against eldar players for their "unfair" codex. Times like these show just how toxic the 40k community can get, and so I've been reflecting on why I play the game. Winning matters and I've sold armies because I was tired of losing all the time, but that is not why I play the game. Above all, 40k can be one of the most entertaining and fun ways to spend my free time. Whether its painting up a force (a rarity in my case), mulling over the fluff of my army, or playing a game against a good opponent I can't think many things I enjoy more. That is why despite the fact that that GW makes some codexes unfairly and continues to increase the prices, I'm still here building my toy soldiers. It seems like everyone in our group has been relatively calm in regards to the rumors, but I thought I'd put my opinion out there in case anyone else was feeling the same way. I really appreciate that our group isn't a bunch of "those guys."
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Post by jefferestinpeace on Apr 20, 2015 8:04:29 GMT -6
Well, I know I'm salty about the whole thing. I know I don't want to play against this kind of stuff (as it won't be fun), but I also know no one here really wants to play with it either. I just feel bad for Russell and his Wraiths, arguably one of the coolest armies you can build. Now it's just a bit stupid.
I'm mostly depressed about GW's lack of awareness. Or lack of a desire to produce good rules. Whatever it is, turns me right off on the company as a whole right now. I'm seriously about DzC; I got a starter army at Adepticon I'm thinking of busting out. They update their rules frequently to better balance out the meta and make sure all units have a role on the tabletop.
But the spirit of your post is worthwhile; we aren't "those guys," and it's nice. I APPRECIATE YOU.
But hell, I'll play against this Eldar bullshit just to see what happens.
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Post by Nick P on Apr 20, 2015 8:24:00 GMT -6
What's going to suck is that, since you can take the one wraith knight as a formation, I think we'll see a bunch of lists that look like this:
CAD - farseer, 2 min sized units of jetbikes, wraithknight +1 wraithknight +1 wraithknight +1 wraithknight (am I at my points limit yet?) +1 wraithknight (there we go, points limit.)
Granted, most TOs only allow 2 detachments/formations, so that will help, and ranged D has to this point been outlawed, so we'll see how the tournament scene takes to that.
It just sucks because its like, its not our fault that Eldar suddenly got stupid buffs, and damnit if I don't still want to convert some dark wraithguard, and put my dark wraithknight on the table from time to time. Hell, I'm even going to feel bad about fielding farseers and windriders as allies, bc that shit just got buffed to hell and back as well.
I just wish there was a way for us as a community (like 40k at large, not chicago hot dog gamers) to reach out and be like "uhm hey GW, what the actual hell were you thinking? Why did you think it would be smart or fun or cool to absolutely destroy the game balance that was already tenuous at best? Did you even playtest it? What made you think it was smart to give D weapons to an entire army?"
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Post by jefferestinpeace on Apr 20, 2015 8:34:48 GMT -6
Yeah, I mostly feel bad for Eldar players, as they won't be able to put their toys on the table without justified whining. They are one of the coolest armies in 40k, and now you have to don the mantle of pariah if you want to be a part of that. The jetbikes too are totally fucked; they take what Flyrants do and multiple it by a billion.
It really blows that GW has made it very clear they have no interest in PR or playtesting or community feedback. It baffles me that in the age of social media, with the speed of immediate reaction and criticism, and the fact that apparently everything is doused in gasoline, a company can pretend like their constituents don't matter. That's what I'm most depressed about with all of this. It's like watching a toddler throw a tantrum. "I don't WANNA please my consumer base!"
The tournament scene will be fine probably. At the very least, this will actually be good for it. The ITC is already making strides to unify tournament rules and bring cohesiveness to our competitive play; many very competitive players no longer travel to tournaments outside the ITC. TOs running "unaltered" tournaments are going to see a significant drop in attendance now, as this is just ridiculous. I'm curious to see how this gets resolved on that end. Still though, jetbikes. Motherfucking jetbikes, that weren't already fantastic.
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Post by Nick P on Apr 20, 2015 8:53:57 GMT -6
Yeah, I mean even if the answer is "use the 6th ed Distort rules" I think we'd be ok. Just being a GC is enough of a boost for the knight, so it can get its FnP and only sniper/poison on a 6, no ID, etc.
The jetbikes, man I just don't get it - why give them the option for everyone to take an upgrade? They're already so cheap, and so effective...and now they can do what a Tyrant can do for like half the cost. Incredible.
All the other changes I actually like - aspects are actually usable now, and each plays fluffily. They're still T3 with like what 4+ saves? 5+? So they're not overpowered, but it gives the army list some character that swooping hawks can attack flyers, warp spiders can jump in their opponents shooting phase to "phase out", scorpions are stealthy and hidden until they strike, and banshees can close into combat like no other unit in the game.
I like the farseer changes too - they should be the best psykers in the game (outside maybe daemons of tzeentch), and with the strange 7th ed psychic phase the new boosts are balanced I feel.
Yeah I mean, the only thing that sucks and isn't fun is the D weapon change. I just don't understand it.
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Post by jefferestinpeace on Apr 20, 2015 9:04:18 GMT -6
I agree about the aspects; the changes are cool, fluffy, and unique, even if it does having every other recent codex lamenting the shaft they got for their "unique" units. I'm even okay with the Farseer stuff, now that they got rid of Daemon summoning. That's all cool.
Jetbikes. Jesus. I've lost so many games due to jetbikes already. Insane.
What really kills me is that the Wraithknight is arguably better than the Phantom now, at least as far as points are concerned, and that's fucked. I'd much rather have a Gargantuan than anything with an AV. The well of hate on this thing is bottomless. It's also a Jump GMC, so it doesn't have to worry about terrain or intervening models. The only real counter is Grav Centurions, or D Weapons. So dumb.
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Post by jefferestinpeace on Apr 20, 2015 9:06:47 GMT -6
Eh, we're getting off topic too. Yes, the book sucks, but we're all nice people. Let's focus there.
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Post by Nick P on Apr 20, 2015 9:07:38 GMT -6
Or, if the WD is to be believed, deathwing knights with power mauls or whatever. They shredded it.
What was hilarious to me is that, they went over the Toxicrene vs Wraithknight with Dsword matchup in WD...and recalled that the toxicrene destroyed the old wraithknight handily, all that poison at AP2? Forget about it.
But now, with the new wraithknight, it killed the toxicrene in 1 round. So they fought it with 2 toxicrenes. And it killed them both. So they fought it with 3. And it killed all 3 without taking a scratch.
You think that would be a red flag? "Hey guys, this thing that gave the wraithknight a run for its money in the last codex? Well the new wraithknight just ate three of them without any sense of danger what so ever. Probably balanced. Cool, ship it."
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Post by Nick P on Apr 20, 2015 9:08:30 GMT -6
Sorry, way off topic. Good call Jeff.
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Post by englishchris on Apr 20, 2015 20:04:13 GMT -6
Why do you think I play Orks and Ultramarines? Its not like I stand a chance of winning with either of them :-)
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Post by clint on Apr 20, 2015 22:46:20 GMT -6
Don't worry Jeff, I can't build (or afford to build) an army list to save my life, so you can always beat up on me...
But yeah, back to Will's question: 40K is something I did in my parents basement shortly after high school with a group of friends. When I moved to Chicago, one of those friends was here and we met/recruited a couple others and had very casual games in our apartments. That was many years ago. I'm just happy to be back pushing my minis around the table. I spent waaaaaaay more money than I really had to spend on them and they've sat in storage for far too long. It's nice to finally get my money's worth, so to speak. I appreciate that the TauNid-type lists get left at home (except for right before tournaments, which is fine) and there's a good mix of people to play with. Some like fluffy armies, some like to deep fry their cheese, but you can easily find a person you enjoy playing on each outing.
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dex
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Post by dex on Apr 21, 2015 9:25:52 GMT -6
I'm nice to you guys... but I'll be damned if I put away my Iyanden army I already have and bought when they were bloody horrible as a fun but cool looking unit. Also yall know that while yes there will be D. Its super expensive to A get those units and B get them where you need them more than once?
But its cool, I'm sure Tau and Space Marines will come out and be super powered.
PS I'll play some DzC or Infinity or Bolt Action or Armada or Fantasy or Highlander 40k or Classic 40k or X-Wing or Board games. But folks generally want to play 40k more and then bitch about it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2015 11:38:46 GMT -6
I didn't read all of the replies in depth but I do have some thoughts.
I know Jeff went on a "GW doesn't listen to their player base/don't playtest" tangent. I'm going to touch on that a little.
I have analyzed this edition from afar. My first and only game in this edition was against a tournament build with my completely non-competitive army. It was an atrocity of epic proportions. With my heart and time invested in my own game, I've had little desire to play. Yet I still follow the rumors religiously. Why is that?
1) The models and new armies are mind blowingly cool. In the last year or so we've seen the addition of the Imperial Knights, Tempestus Militarum, Skitarii, and Harlequins in addition to the usual suspects. The Imperial Knight, Scions, Taurox (yes the Taurox!), Morkanaut/Gorkanaut, the Space Wolves mini-Caestus flyer, and EVERYTHING Skitarii has been fantastic.
2) I realized that this edition is an AWFUL tournament edition, but might be the BEST campaign edition ever. We are spoiled for choice, and if you want to play out a cool fucking narrative, the world is your fucking oyster.
I think #2 is by design. I know Jeff and much of the internet think GW aren't playtesting, but they have rarely ever taken the tournament scene into consideration, and since stepping away from it... They just want to make cool shit. And this is definitely the edition of COOL SHIT. And that is why I am still immersed in what is going on.
The tournament scene, and the player base, is a trainwreck. Walking up and seeing Cisco (who used to play at NDG occasionally, and who still has my utmost respect) playing Tau-Nids in the AdeptiCon 40K Championships absolutely gutted me. It was a logical atrocity in my brain. GW has made the game wide open, and what that means for campaign play is limitless story telling. What it means for competitive gaming is hideous. The TO's need to rein it in and tell the player base who insist they should be able to "play with every one of their toys like GW intended" to STFU. It's time for heavy restrictions and composition in my opinion.
The most exciting tournament coming up this year is sadly named the Beef and Wing Brawl in Buffalo, NY. 1250 pts. Highlander format. I might actually make the trip out.
But yeah, to answer Will, the models man, and the backstory. They're still awesome and the core of what I love. If I still lived there I'd probably be wrangling some of you to campaign game with me because this edition is built for it.
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Post by Nick P on Apr 21, 2015 11:44:02 GMT -6
Shall we get back into the campaign from last summer, Jeffy? I think the battles of the Orozon star system are only starting to heat up...
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Post by clint on Apr 21, 2015 12:04:47 GMT -6
I'm down for a campaign. The last one I did was a cityfight variant where each game there was a stake of a randomly generated territory that would allow the winner to field X more points in the next game. I've been really interested in the 40K version of "Mighty Empires" (but that's because I don't know much about it, as GW tends to disappoint in that respect), and Chris mentioned being willing to run something on Wednesdays.
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