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Post by jefferestinpeace on Dec 1, 2014 13:23:24 GMT -6
Also, definitely making the Deathstorm Warriors into Lictors now-- awesome idea.
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Post by Nick P on Dec 1, 2014 14:20:12 GMT -6
Yeah I really want to give lictors a shot - its just such a good objective grabber for the points, and it has S6 and is decently tough to take out all things considered. At the very least, your opponent is going to be wasting a ton of shooting on killing a single model most likely, and with perfect DS, they will always go exactly where you need them. I don't know that I want to make the points for an entire deathleaper formation, since I just love my drop pods and backfield Tervigon, but here's what I'm thinking:
I want to do: 2x Flyrants Mal lictor lictor 20 devilgants 30 gants tervigon exocrine 2x tyrannocytes skytyrant formation
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Post by jefferestinpeace on Dec 1, 2014 14:41:09 GMT -6
Yeah, I guess I'm not taking any Elites. The formation might be pushing it. 150 for what they do, especially if they can stay off the board for awhile, is pretty alright. I might retool a bit.
And yeah man, your Tervigon yesterday made me wish I had one. Just so much coming from her. I put so much firepower into making sure those Gants were dead before they did anything. She essentially hands out bulletproof vests to the rest of the army.
I think dropping an empty Tyranno isn't a bad idea at all, btw. However, you might just want to take a Sporocyst then, for the Mine shield.
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Post by Nick P on Dec 1, 2014 15:09:29 GMT -6
The deathleaper formation is like 400 points - its deathleaper and 5 lictors minimum, so its a huge points sink. Where did you get 150 from?
Yeah the tervigon is hit or miss though - I managed to poop out 15, 12, and 11 gants, but that could have easily been 5, 3, and 5, or 3 and done. Dice man, they are a fickle bitch.
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Post by jefferestinpeace on Dec 1, 2014 16:02:33 GMT -6
I meant having 3 Lictors in my Elites instead of the DL formation would be 150 instead of 400 and probably yield similar results.
Sorry, I wasn't clear, definitely internalizing much of my logic.
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Post by Nick P on Dec 1, 2014 16:27:30 GMT -6
Dick
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Post by jefferestinpeace on Dec 1, 2014 16:39:07 GMT -6
Uh oh, here comes Mike and his chug-hole.
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Post by Russell on Dec 1, 2014 17:06:09 GMT -6
I heard that Mike literally cannot stop chugging dick.
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Post by Joelercoaster on Dec 1, 2014 17:17:55 GMT -6
Hierodule seems pretty solid on paper, at least. The biggest complaint in general is that it's the durability of a Wraithknight, but twice the cost.
Okay, sure... but. You also get FnP, and pseudo-immunity to ID/Poison built in. You get Stomp to clear through hordes that otherwise hold down a WK for half the game (read; ablative gaunts). You are Agile, which allows the run-shenanigans that are aforementioned.
Unlike vehicles, it's stupidly easy to get cover - a toe in "not area terrain" or a *single gaunt* in front of you (yes, really) gives you a whatever-plus. And it's really easy to make that a 3+, given the army.
Perhaps most importantly, you can split fire. Even being BS3, the 'Dule can pretty much expect to pop 2 standard transports (barring cover) a turn. 3 hits on each target, and AV's up to 12 can reasonably expect 3 HP in damage. So pretty much 99% of basic transports. The sucker even has the rate of fire to mess with flyers.
I really wish it didn't have the blocky armor... I absolutely adore the Hierophant model, but really don't care for the 'dules nearly as much. Giving some thought to converting from other GW kits... base size is easy to replicate, and it's not that much bigger than a lot of our MC's, just bulkier. Hmm...
Anyway. Defsies interested in hearing more about the Spore Field. Want to start using it in my own armies ASAP, so tactics advice is always welcome. And lictors as general annoyance/objective grabbers does sound nifty, I just nearly always find my Elites already filled up. If I actually threw in a 'dule, that'd take the place (easily) of two broods of Hive Guard, and would allow for more outside shenanigans.. hrmms.
Tervigons are still sexy. Even if you just use them as a tool to throw ablative shields at whatever you need to tie up/annoy for a turn. We're still the only army that can do that well (necrons and spawning scarabs? Have yet to see that in play), so it's definitely a cool thing to have access to.
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Post by Nick P on Dec 1, 2014 18:22:33 GMT -6
Joel I'm glad you mentioned hive guard - that's something I was thinking about. 6 hive guard are 12 S8 shots at BS3, and are only...320? Instead of the 565 for the dule. You still get to fire at 2 separate units, and granted the survivability is lower and they don't have as good of range - but man, the points savings for an *almost* comparable amount of fire power. It's definitely intriguing.
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Post by Joelercoaster on Dec 1, 2014 19:40:12 GMT -6
The firepower is.... similar, I will grant. I mean, obviously S10 is better than S8, although S8 is hardly bad. But the survivability difference of the two is... staggering. The 'dule's T8 makes it fully immune to the vast majority of small arms fire, which is actually pretty huge.
Really, using them in tandem is the best of both worlds, as you're forcing your opponent's hand. When you have standard Niddy MC's on the board, while you *want* to fire big guns at them, bolters *do* have a chance to wound, and so at least are not wasted. This means you can, if you want, focus big guns on the slightly softer targets to quickly eliminate them, and then focus fire *with everything* on the big guys, or whatever ends up being the actual best idea given the situation.
GC's straight up require giant guns to even hurt, leaving less to deal with regular MC's, and likely none to deal with middling bugs. And as you're nearly guaranteed to get at least a 5+ cover, and then 5+ FnP, you have a reasonable chance of saving vs even big things (barring a lucky 6 D-shot).
There's also the uncontested mobility advantage of the 'dule. An effective 48" range is... well... 150% that of a brood of Hive Guard. Granted, you get 2 Guard broods (and really could probably pull 3 for the cost)... but actually the threat bubble is about the same. 3 HG are going to cover a similar overall area that a big-ol' 48" radius bubble would. Of course, that requires a synapse web to cover, etc etc... blah blah... stuff. And words.
Does make one wonder about the comparisons of 9 HG vs 1 'dule.
Screw it. Bring both.
Also need to build up a scythed beasty for nomming marines. Methinks we need to start comparing all of the new torso's to the 'dule's body to see if there's anything reasonably similar.
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Post by jefferestinpeace on Dec 1, 2014 20:35:11 GMT -6
Also, the Dule doubled out Nick's Malanthrope, which was nice.
Doubling out those pesky Space Marine bikers with AP3 is going to come in handy methinks. The Dule can operate as more of a generalist than the Hive Guard, as the ignore cover is where those dudes really shine. It's really just to your taste, but I am convinced he's worth the points.
There's also been talk of actually taking old Swarmy with the Dule to give it Preferred Enemy, making it disgusting. That's a helluva castle.
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Post by Joelercoaster on Dec 1, 2014 21:48:04 GMT -6
Yeah, doesn't get much better than S10. The Dule can eat through infantry pretty hardcore... it's exceedingly versatile.
Hive Guard are hardly bad at that role... vs "xenos" level stuff, they're pretty nasty, and they can double-out a lot of characters and such, but... yeah. Obviously the 'dule's guns are better. Ignores Cover definitely has its uses, and will set the HG above the Dule vs specific targets... but... as a general thing? The better profile = better.
I would think running a Malanthrope near the Dule would be pretty nasty... a fairly durable Shrouded bubble, jumping into assaults with the Dule will about guarantee Prefen if you want to, and its tail can eat challenge characters (half the time?) that could actually give the monster a rough tumble.
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Post by Nick P on Dec 3, 2014 9:33:21 GMT -6
Alright I've changed my list yet again. I've been watching a lot of competitive battle reports prepping for other GT style tournaments, and I'm convinced that to be competitive you need to be focused more on mobility and objective capture, rather than focusing so hard on "how many knights and wave serpents can I kill". Of the roughly 15 batreps I've seen in the last 2 days, it was always the army that had more mobility that ended up winning out in battle points, even up against strong adamantium lance and wave serpent spam lists.
SO! Here's my latest thoughts that I want to start testing:
CaD: Flyrant, dakka, electro, warlord Flyrant, dakke, electro Lictor Lictor Lictor 3 rippers (deep strike) 3 rippers (deep strike) Hive Crone Dimachaeron w/ tyrannocyte Mawloc Mawloc
Skytyrant Swarm: Flyrant, lashwhip/bonesword, toxin sacs, electro 10 gargoyles 10 gargoyles
Total: 1790 (60 points to spend)
3 tyrants is nasty, one of them kitted out to take out riptides/wraithknights in combat, the others kitted out to do what tyrants do best, dish out S6 pain all day long.
Crone is here to add some turn-1 haywire missiles to help against any knights or AV14 (likely to see at least 1-2 throughout the tourney I'm guessing), and his template isn't half bad at clearing infantry off objectives after he's spent his testiclids.
The rest is just DS threat overload. Lictors to perfect DS where I need them most, followed by mawlocs to deal S6 large blast damage to blobs or to clear objectives. Rippers can DS onto or near uncontested objectives, and the dimachaeron is here to wreak havoc and play distraction.
With 9 DSing units, there is going to be some issue with getting them to come in coherently on turn 2, so I might have to find points somewhere to grab a comms relay. But overall, should present the opponent with a lot of targets, and should leave me with enough units where I need them and enough damage doers on the board (S6 shooting from tyrants and lictors, S6 blasts from mawlocs, ID combat from the dima and the skytyrant) to earn kill points where necessary.
What to do with the extra 60 points though? Add another DS ripper unit, for targeted ObSec? Take away the skytyrant, upgrade to a Leviathan Detachment to grab 3 tyrants, and spend the 60 points (with the 120 from the gargoyles) on something nasty like a 3rd mawloc in exchange for losing ObSec?
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Post by Joelercoaster on Dec 3, 2014 9:46:45 GMT -6
Agreed. The game is won by objectives - proof is in the Lictor-List pudding. Granted in a KP mission those Lictors would struggle, but the guy knew what was up, and he played it well.
On the note of HG vs BH... 9 Hive Guard vs 1 Barbed Hierodule, the damage on vehicles is actually very similar. Barring AV10 where the higher output of the HG win out (just a bit), the Hierodule is, as expected, pulling ahead on damage - although not really by a heavy amount (best is AV 14 where 'dule gets 3 damage to the 1.5 of the Guard).
However, as soon as you factor in 5+ cover, the Hive Guard pull ahead in every instance (other than AV14, where 4+ makes them even).
So it's... interesting. I kind of like it. Hive Guard have their role of being decent shooty platforms that don't care about cover, and when that comes into play, it comes into play hard. Out in the open, the big dakka of the 'dule is pulling ahead.
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