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Post by Nick P on Nov 25, 2014 20:21:47 GMT -6
All this talk of adamantine lances makes me happy my army can take Meltaguns on just about everything. Heh, meltaguns, that's cute. More like diet dark lances, amirite?
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Post by Joelercoaster on Nov 25, 2014 21:48:45 GMT -6
Unfortunately a meltagun in range is far superior to a standard issue dark matter weapon... one of my general frustrations about Fire Dragons vs Blasterborn... Dragon's lack the range of a Blaster, but once you get inside the death-bubble, it's probably at least twice as good... on the whole, moderately even. Except that Blasterborn can't actually give each member a special weapon, have a far worse armor save, and cost about 5 points more (because Blasters didn't receive the same drop as Lances for some reason).
I'm scarily close to building a full on Corsairs list, just mixing and matching from the combined forces of the Eldar.
In other news... I keep seeing a trend in "competitive Nids" to focus nearly exclusively on monstrous creatures... built-in fearless, mitigating the worst of synapse... there's a lot to be said. But I really think (want?) there to be legitimate benefits from having swarms of gribblies... Devilgaunts are still scary in what they can dish out for, oh, 160 points? That's 30 bodies and 10 Devourers. 30 shots at reasonable range, a unit that can clog a WraithKnight or other nasty MC for pretty much the entire game, or just throw weight-of-dice into whatever combat you actually want to win.
Or am I just feeding my inner fluff bunny? Do I need to stop trying to make "units I like" work, or is this enough of a real thing to warrant some points set aside?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2014 23:42:40 GMT -6
All this talk of adamantine lances makes me happy my army can take Meltaguns on just about everything. Heh, meltaguns, that's cute. More like diet dark lances, amirite? Multi-Meltas take the cake IMO. 24" with a 12" death range, just to good.
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Post by Joelercoaster on Nov 26, 2014 7:42:05 GMT -6
Well, Dark Lances (the equivalent) have a 36" effective range.
I wonder sometimes why the uber-maneuverable Dark Eldar don't have more in the way of a melta-style weapon, that they could so easily make use of. Lances... shrug. Being able to skirt at 36" definitely has its perks, though.
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Post by Nick P on Nov 26, 2014 10:22:29 GMT -6
Do I need to stop trying to make "units I like" work, or is this enough of a real thing to warrant some points set aside? You need to go roll dice and stop theory crafting in your apartment lol come out into the sun Joel it's not so bad
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Post by Joelercoaster on Nov 26, 2014 15:57:45 GMT -6
Why are we suddenly acting like I'm a cave troll? If anyone ever wants to do something on a day I don't work, hit me up. I can't exactly go to all of these 9-5 events on Saturdays...
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Post by Russell on Nov 26, 2014 19:46:08 GMT -6
Show me anything in our codex that can hope to deal with the Adamantine Lance. A few days ago you were talking about E-Grubs being our best anti-Knight weapon, and now 6 of them on highly maneuverable platforms aren't enough to deal with one land raider? It was this statement that set it off, you came across as a tad rude.
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Post by Joelercoaster on Nov 27, 2014 7:21:11 GMT -6
My bad. Sometimes I come off more crotchety than I intend to. Apologies.
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Post by Nick P on Dec 1, 2014 10:17:53 GMT -6
So, some things Jeff and I realized yesterday while duking it out Nid v Nid, like good little hive minds (natural selection FTW): - Barbed Heirodule was pretty good - I can see how it would have utility vs something like an Imperial Knight, or Adamantine Lance formation. In our game, it felt like overkill, but managed to suck up my skytyrant for 3 turns of combat, killed my malanthrope with its S10 gun, and shot my hive guard off an objective, so got its points back with ease. Statistically it would do an average of 1.5 HPs per turn vs knights (assuming the Invuln save), so Jeff would the point be to get it into CC to tear them down? Or just take it because, despite being an average of 1.5 HPs, its our best anti-armor option?
- Spore Field - seemed legit on paper, is dirt cheap, and felt like it would be great for board control. In reality, its extremely easy to set up to deny your opponent ideal infiltrating position, and single mucolids and clumps of 3-5 spore mines just die too easily. Maybe vs non-nid armies it will do better - since nid range is so short, I found that in many cases the ONLY unit I could shoot at was the spore mines/mucs, so I wasn't actually having to make any of the tough decisions that bringing a spore field is intended to force.
- Spore-O-matics - cheap, sounds like good board control once again, and if nothing else solid objective holding. Jeff brought 2, and I was able to kill them both on turn 1 thanks to devourers and warp lance. Granted, most armies won't be able to double them out with S10, so they might be more survivable against marines or eldar. Probably worth a second try. Oh, and don't deploy them assuming they have shrouded, because they do not (sorry heffe).
- skytyrant was...interesting. I kitted out my tyrant for cc, intending to hunt down monsters, but when the only other monsters are Gargantuan Creatures or other flying MCs, its tough to do. I think this warrants another try, especially since until I got him into combat the unit performed well and was an ample (if a bit unwieldy) screen unit to the rest of my force. Given the amount of riptides and wraithknights that are likely going to show up at adepticon, this guy should do better in non-nid play. Also, I should have statistically killed the heirodule in turn 2 based on average roles. BOOOO
- tyrannocytes were tits - I really enjoyed using them, especially against a force like Jeff's that didn't have a lot of bodies thanks to the LoW slot he took. Wish I had better units to drop than my hive guard, since they really didn't provide as much of a punch as I thought they might, but the 20 devilgants were great - grounded his warlord FMC, wounded it a second time on their first turn in, and were then able to hold him in combat for a while. Worth the points for sure, just need to find a better option to drop in along side them (dima?).
I'll be looking to play some more test games as we head into january, although December is a tough month for me schedule wise. Once we get into 2015 and we have the finalized Adepticon mission pack, I'll be looking to get several games a week in against as competitive of armies as you all can scrounge together.
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Post by jefferestinpeace on Dec 1, 2014 10:53:47 GMT -6
I do wish we could have played the game out. It could have gone either way. Here's what I learned: - Going 2nd with Flyrants in optimal deployment is awesome. I was able to be incredibly reactive to Nick's initial movements and, had the Sporocysts not taken a shit all over themselves (and I knew their rules), it would have probably secured me both First Blood and Warlord. However, fuck dice.
- I played the Sporefield all wrong. It's absolutely, 100% a defensive formation. You just pack your objectives with those motherfuckers and dare your opponent to come at you. If your opponent totally flubs his deployment, they could be worth a hyper-aggressive backfield deployment, but otherwise, you gotta hunker down. Make your opponent pay dearly for taking objectives.
- I will try Sporocysts again. With Emperor's Will, I should have played them more defensively. This and the Sporefield play so well into Trapdoor Spider tactics it's kinda gross. With multiple objectives, packing them as closely together and sitting these fat fuckers on top probably provides the best castle in the game right now. And I like my castles. If we had the last codex's Old Adversary... fuck.
- BARBED HIERODULE! Convinced me so completely. It's ace. With Knights, I expect to draw a lot of their attention while dishing out plenty of hurt every turn. The best part is that this thing can move 12", making the Knights have to chase it down for a bit before they can kill it in combat. Even then, I got a chance to deal some hurt back, and open up opportunities for Flyrants to Haywire them. It's a points sink, but it really is worth it.
- The only problem I have is going after objectives. I'm reluctant to move my LAN around because that reroll scatter really did great for me this game, but I'm going to have to get comfortable cruising those units into position and play for the Victory when they need to go. This is where objective deployment takes precedent again, putting that shit as close together as possible. I'm thinking about modifying this list to include a Deathleaper formation solely for the no scatter Deep Strike to contest objectives.
I'd like to start playing more 1850 games using the BAO/LVO missions, as that's probably what Adepticon is going to do. At least the missions they used last year. I need practice; there's so much going on right now for Nids.
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Post by Russell on Dec 1, 2014 11:54:21 GMT -6
what are the stats / points cost of the herodude?
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Post by jefferestinpeace on Dec 1, 2014 11:56:24 GMT -6
565 pts WS3 BS3 S8 T8 W6 I3 A5 LD10 SV3+
Can move 12", fire at two different targets, and I'm pretty sure it can Run + Shoot all the time. Gun is 2x 48" Assault 6 S10 AP3. It's also a Gargantuan so it gets Stomp and FNP and all that shit built in.
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Post by Nick P on Dec 1, 2014 12:10:07 GMT -6
Yeah all the big nids have "Agile", so it can run and shoot once or run twice and not shoot, or shoot both guns and not run per usual rules.
And yes, I wish we could have finished out too - it was going to be a close one. I feel like I tried to hard to spread the wealth around in terms of my deployment and first turn movement - I really should have pushed a flank, and honestly probably should have ignored the heirodule all together since there was really only a snowballs chance of killing it in combat (since I apparently don't know how poison + GC works).
And I agree completely about the sporefield being defensive - with the 6 objectives that the BAO missions use, being able to cover the ones in your deployment zone with shrapnel to repel alpha-strikers is key. A drop pod + marines can kill at most 2 spore mine units/mucs on the turn they drop in - and every other one in the area will just explode on them immediately after.
I think the key is getting more objective scoring units into your list - the LaN is pretty good, but it focuses too heavily on static shooting, and isn't very mobile. Likewise, the flyrants and drop pods were great for me, but the huge gant blob, exocrine, and tervigon just kinda...sat around. Great for holding homefield objectives, but not great at doing much else. I'm with you Jeff, I think the lictor formation is something to consider. And, with the new venomthropes, you can make plastic lictors easier than ever - venomthrope head + warrior body + small MC talons = lictor.
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Post by Nick P on Dec 1, 2014 13:11:10 GMT -6
Also, HERE are the 40k champs practice missions. Lots of maelstrom objectives, so being mobile and resilient is huge.
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Post by jefferestinpeace on Dec 1, 2014 13:22:52 GMT -6
I'm not super worried about making sure I have OS. I think list building either loads up like crazy on OS (Drop marines, Wave Serpent, DE Raiders/Venoms), or has the token two. Either way, they each have pretty clear tactics one can use against them, and I think trying to ride the midline of OS is going to hamper a list more than help it.
I think I'm going to drop LAN. I hope I can still hold onto the Exocrine as it always does work no matter what's on the board, and I'm loathe to drop Biovores, but I think it's gotta happen for the sake of adaptability. That's why the Hierodule is so sweet; it can castle up like a boss and then turn on the burners to be wherever it needs to be in an instant. Ugh. So fucking great.
So, next 1850 (unless I give the Cysts another shot)
2x Dakkaflyrant 2x Mukes Malanthrope Exocrine Barbie Deathleaper Formation Sporefield Formation
Leaves me 50 pts leftover which I actually think I'll spend on a Zoanthrope. Little more durable backfield Synapse and 2 more Psychic Dice-- yes please. I can also just end up at 1845 with a brood of DSing Rippers if in fact I do feel the need for a little OS.
It also gives a little flexibility in Warlord too. It's tempting to make it Deathleaper and just settle for Mind Eater (which I guess might win me the game in a weird situation), but I'm loathe to give up rerolling on the Strategic Table. Wevs.
So, I can castle up with the two heavy hitters and the Mal on an Objective, float the Z wherever he wants to go, have 2 Flyrants, and dump annoying bastards on any objective they need to be on, doing the whole "Go to Ground then immediately jump up for Synapse" thing. Sounds fun.
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