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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2014 15:36:04 GMT -6
When I read ppm I think: parts per million instead of points per model. Stop trying to co-opt environmental science abbreviations for your silly science denying game Nick Powell!
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Post by Nick P on Sept 29, 2014 15:40:40 GMT -6
haha Nick I think the same thing every time I type it...mother effin' chemistry, getting in the way of my nerd game, quit it!
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Post by Joelercoaster on Sept 29, 2014 16:34:13 GMT -6
Night Shields are rumored to be up by 5 points, but that also makes the overall cost equal to what it is now (or less, if you don't like upgrades), so it's really a matter of if you like the new Night Shields. I'll try them for sure, we'll see how well they do.
I absolutely LOVE that a fair amount of Ld shenanigans are being put into place. However, if anything with ATSKNF completely ignores it (in addition to Fearless things) then that's... less than ideal? I mean, that just means a *lot* of armies (all marines, Nids, Deamons, and maybe Orks) completely ignoring the effects... and then Necrons mostly ignoring them with Ld10. So it may not be useful in the end, which is frustrating to me only because I loved those effects in the old book, and would love nothing more than to see them back in a meaningful way.
New WWP is more boring, but way more effective. It's (sadly) probably best with Eldar Allies, but really there's a lot we can do on our own with it to make stuff cry, and cry hard.
I do have to disagree that the new Medusea is "just a buff". Average strength got lower, and while an AP3 flamer is nothing to cry about, you had that half the time, with 1/3 being Ap2 or better. Shoot, if you got lucky (really lucky) you had a better-than-plasma flamer. That said, a stock S4 ap3 flamer for, what, 20 points we're told? Is... you know... pretty solid. The Archon is seeming to be lacking any AP2 options, making him a troop-slaughterer rather than a character hunter/CC sniper. I'll elaborate a bit more in a 2nd post, just to break up the inevitable wall of text.
I think a couple of the new drugs are still the "ugghs, really?" rolls, but overall they'll be fine, as they're just something certain units get as a bonus. Although if the Archon can still take a drug dispenser, I'm not actually sure if I'd be willing to pay for it with the new chart. Chances are I will, but I'll think on it.
New court in general will be interesting. If the Llahmean still gives the Archon 2+ poison, then Agonizers just became insane. Although there's no word on that potential one way or the other.
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Post by Joelercoaster on Sept 29, 2014 16:56:24 GMT -6
Okay. So some of my general thoughts.
All of our vehicles will basically keep doing the same thing they've been doing. Venoms and Ravagers will be "sit back and shoot from 36" away", likely utilizing cover with Night Shields. Raiders, I would expect, will be the go-to for anything that wants to get close, as you really don't care if it jinks (losing one shot vs 12). Also with Night Shields, because 3+ is baller. Add-on potential of special grenades making people scared. I really hope it's done in a meaningful way, but we'll know soon.
Basically all of our core units getting cheaper means a not-insignificant reduction in army cost. I mean, if you have 50 bodies, that's 50 spare points. This could just be eaten by other wargear being more expensive or whatever else, but at least it balances those extra costs out if nothing else. Plus, now we get to be cheaper than Craftworlders again. I always loved making them jealous.
I'm a bit confused on the rumors about all of our AP2. So far what I see is that it seems anything AP2 has "unweildy" attached to it. The succubus glaive is ap3, or ap2 two-handed... same with Incubi. Does going two-handed give unweildy by nature? I can't access my book to check right now (other computer is down)... people seem rather sure of this, but I can't connect the dots on it. Shrug. What it means, though... Huskblade losing ap2 is a big hit, but it is getting cheaper. It essentially puts the used weapons on more equal footing, for different tasks. Agonizers become the generic go-to slaughter weapon, while Husks become the big-game-hunter weapon (thanks to ID).
Yeah, Aggies are only Ap3 now, and that's why so many people dropped them (even before combat was a terrible idea). But realistically, what is AP2, and why do we care?
big bad commanders are, for sure (if you have the option). Yeah, it was great to soul-trap them, and then rampage around with S6. But really, how often did this happen in the past 4 years? All of... 5 times? Truth is it took way too long to set up the charge vs the one guy who could unlock that glorious prize. It was a hilarious combo, and gave some board control, but since the new Trap activates on ANY challenge, you don't need to hunt the biggest baddest guy... you can stick to the easy-to-kill schmucks... and kill them. Yeah it's only +1 S each time (I think?)... but that's something that's now 10x easier to get... you can still build up to that S6 monster machine, but you'll get incrementally better as you go this time around. I think it's way more useful in the end.
Terminators, Centurions, and a few other hardcore Elites. Yeah, our incubi/Archon won't be chewing through their 2+'s. But our Dark Lances will just fine. Don't play fair. Don't give them an honorable death. Use your Archon where he'll rip shreds, and lance the rest. Far as I can see, that's a problem well solved. 90% of things will be chowder to that unit. So target 90% of things.
*IF* our AP2 is all unwieldy, then we can still use it to our advantage. Chances are you choose model-by-model what mode they strike in, so you can initiative-snipe the same way that Lash Whips let you. Even if the enemy is only wearing power armor, have the guy beside the sgt strike last, and then the Sgt is being removed first (baring LOS!). Now they're down Ld for the ensuing roll and rundown. Succubus getting an AP2 option just means she has more of a place in the army. If you really, really, really can't do without AP2 in combat, then take her. She's cheap, and fills that role. Why are you complaining?
Things will be different for sure, and in the end I may groan once I see our combat options... but I think even AP3 Archons could be a real contender for a useful unit, especially if the Mistress of Poisons rule stays in with the Aggy. Seriously. Uriel with a Shadow Field anyone?
That said, the Field getting more expensive is bollucks. Don't get me wrong, a 2++ is hilarious, but when it's so easy to wound T3, *and* it goes away when failed? Well... at least it lasts until the end of the round now (so we're told), so that is a boost, and maybe worth the increase (if small). Actually, if it's a clean 30 pts, and lets you roll all at once for each round, then it's only worse when you're facing S6+ (or S8, if you rolled +T on Drugs). So even that may not be a nerf, so much as a worthwhile extra cost. But it could be up to like 50 now, which would be stupid. But shrug.
And if 'Brides get haywire stock, then I'm going to laugh at everyone complaining about losing it on wyches... because yeah, you still have that EXACT SAME UNIT, except Elites, and better in combat. And you can take all the elites you want if you start running Heamies as HQ's, which boost your PfP, so they're still a solid addition.
I'm hoping our Relics aren't ridiculous expensive. They mostly sound fun, if properly costed. They could easily be shunted into 'unusable' if they're way overpriced, though, especially that ghostplate doo-hick that will already only work on half of armies (ish). Well, the -2 Ld would still affect Marines, but they still can't be run down, so ... you know. Less of a thing. I still want it because it's awesome, though. Basically I love the sound of the Relics, but it comes down to cost, like anything else. Flavorful, fitting, and maniacally evil... all perfect... but I can't run around with a 400 point Archon. No sir.
Also, I love how everyone moaning that everything about these rumors is bad, are the same people who moaned that FnP going down to a 5+ broke the army, and then ignore the item that gives us 4+ FnP right back. Yeup. Science.
I guess in the end, what I can say is that I feel far better about this release (at this point, with the limited knowledge we have) than I did about Tyranids at the same point in their release (which was utter hopelessness, more or less, and akin to what I still feel).
Yeah. Fear us. It's the right thing to do.
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Post by Nick P on Sept 29, 2014 21:41:46 GMT -6
Two handed does not equal unwieldy, so I don't know where the Internet is getting that from. It just means you don't get an extra attack for using two ccws.
As far as ap2, we have incubi, the archite glaive on the succubus, and maybe liquifiers depending on your roll. Oh and all the dark lances and blasters.
I'm into the new stuff, I echo your positivity and hopefulness. I think the way you, me, and mike run the army will see big boosts; those who relied on duke or Baron are the ones who are going to get needed hard, and it's those people that are forming the majority of the mob online.
I think I'm going to be running an archon and succubus, court of the archon, blasterborn, haybrides, venom warriors, razorwings and Ravagers. Adding in Eldar allies to taste, like some dark wraithguard with d scythes...muahahaha
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Post by Joelercoaster on Sept 30, 2014 18:46:51 GMT -6
Incubi already don't have 2 weapons, so that's no penalty at all. I'd gladly drop an attack on a Succubus to get +1 S and AP2. Most of the time I'd do it just for the Strength. Maths are needed, but it's probably generally better.
And don't forget Dissies on that list of AP2. Now that PfP isn't kill-dependent, Razorwings can go full AI with no hidden penalty. They absolutely slaughter troops, and can still threaten AV10 flyers with 6 dissie shots. It's a sad replacement for real anti-air, and I don't think the Voidraven is worth the (more costly) investment... it's "okay" to be expensive when it's our only option, says Gee-Dubs.
Questionable at best.
I used Duke with a passion, but I won't really miss him. 3+ poison was fun, but Splinter Racks for Cannons will allow for the same relative damage output. Everything can DS for free now, so really the only ability we truly lose is the double-roll on the drug table. That's highly unfortunate that it's not at least a Warlord Trait, but if it was people who don't use Cult units would complain that it was on there, anyway.
I actually think the rumored table is pretty decent, aside from the +WS option. Seriously? If it was +WS and +A or something,... I mean... seriously? Do you really think WS7 is not enough to hit on 3's?? Such an overrated stat once you pass 5.
Ah well, that's what the battleforged re-roll is for. Also, Strategic Table.
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Post by Joelercoaster on Sept 30, 2014 19:55:03 GMT -6
New post cause it's worth it.
Spanish leaks are showing Scourges (5-man unit) toting 4 special weapons. 4 heat Lances are listed as being 120 points - a very serious price break.
My best guess here is that special weapons will remain (roughly) the same... if the HL went down to 10 points, that leaves 80 for 5 models... so... that doesn't work... heh... math.
Not sure how the numbers would work out, and I'm too tired to run a bunch of random tests. If this is accurate, though, my guess is Scourges got a *lot* cheaper, but lost the base splinter carbine (with potential for upgrade, I'd guess). Meaning if you want poison-death you can pay for it, otherwise it's a much cheaper special weapons team.
Or they only dropped by a couple of points, and weapons got a whole lot cheaper. Probably more likely, as the numbers add up that way.
Still. Cheaper + 4 guns per squad = haywire blasting shenanigans all over the place. 5 dudes with jump/fleet is easy to hide behind cover, and 4 haywires is a really good way to drop a standard vehicle reliably. Mostly reliably.
Wyches may not do it in combat, but Scourges do it from 24" away? Plus if 'Brides can still Haywire, then we still have that unit. No real mention of them or their options at all at this point.
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Post by Nick P on Sept 30, 2014 20:03:24 GMT -6
That breaks down to 16 point scourges, assuming the 10 point lances. Which is fucking awesome. Likely to see the carbines as standard still, since the squad doesn't come with rifles on the sprue...they wouldn't make their standard equipment unavailable on the model, should you choose to do an all scourge unbound list.
Like you said, they're going to be great special weapons squads - and with 6 fast slots in our detachment....fuck dude. I'll throw down 30 scourges for 700 points easy. That's not even a question. Like at all. At 1850, you still get three Ravagers and your warriors and trueborns in venoms, plus a baller archon. Just so awesome.
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Post by Joelercoaster on Oct 1, 2014 6:44:50 GMT -6
So. Much. Boner.
What are Heat Lances now? And good call on the equipment, I forgot that Carbines actually do look slightly different than not-carbines.
Still want to scour the world about Bloodbrides. If everyone whining about HW-Wyches (which, okay, I understand) opens the book and says "Oh I'll just do Bloodbrides instead", then I call dibs in maniacal glee (and bloodshed. Definitely also bloodshed).
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Post by Nick P on Oct 1, 2014 6:53:50 GMT -6
One of the spanish blogs with codex pics showed that min unit sizes went to 5 across the board, meaning we can't fit characters in with trueborn or bloodbrides in venoms and use perfect deep strike...so one good tactic from all this isn't real life after all. Bummer.
But still, I'm going to run so many scourges to replace my haywyches.
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Post by Joelercoaster on Oct 1, 2014 7:12:58 GMT -6
So put them in a raider. Problem solved.
Also current heat lances are 12, so scourges to 16 with 10 pt hl sends fitting. That's a big decrease in scourges. Like, the size of Jeff's D big.
So a blasterborn squad got a couple points more expensive. Shrug. Still worth using.
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Post by Nick P on Oct 1, 2014 7:30:56 GMT -6
Also, apparently dissies come standard on everything (raiders, razorwing, ravagers), and its +5/10/15 to upgrade to dark lances. So, raiders are actually still 60 points, but the razorwing might just be our cheap anti-infantry option. Ravagers should still be upgraded, since they're our main anti-tank and our main source of AA just based on a 50% chance to get a single 6 to hit.
Oh, and apparently Ravagers can only move 6" and fire all 3 now. Which I think is bunk, and I'm really hoping some spanish idiot just missed something, or the translation is wrong.
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Post by Nick P on Oct 1, 2014 12:21:49 GMT -6
Confirmed from codex pics:
Warriors are 8 pts each. trueborn are a 3 point upgrade. Minimum 5 models for trueborn and bloodbrides, which move to Elite slot after upgrade. Only hekatrix or syren can have haywire, so even bloodbrides don't get it. Razorwings are confirmed in the FA slot.
Trying to find more info on the spanish sites, where all the books seem to be leaking.
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Post by Nick P on Oct 1, 2014 12:42:22 GMT -6
Wyches remain 10 points, +3 for bloodbrides. Trueborn can have up to 4 special weapons, 2 heavy weapons, no matter the unit size. Warriors can have 1 special at 5 models, 1 special and 1 heavy at 10 models, as now. No bikes or hoverboard for archons. Wyches/Succubus/Lelith - no invuln vs overwatch (except lelith, who has a stock 4++ anyways).
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Post by Nick P on Oct 1, 2014 12:56:00 GMT -6
Scourges are 16 points, and can take up to 4 special or heavy weapons in any size unit. Hello 5-man 4-haywire squads! Happy day!
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