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Post by Eric formerly Eric on Nov 6, 2017 16:52:36 GMT -6
Now that marine characters give area bonuses (rerolling 1s, etc), ive been struggling with balancing clumping my units to get bonuses and controlling the board/downfield objectives. I like having mobility, but i feel like spreading out units is a waste of captains/lieutenants. What have people found successful?
When building gunlines, what units have people liked most? My 7th ed army had lots of vanguard vets, bikes and deepstrikers, so im not used to castling up.
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doubleback
novice
I rock harder than most, yet less hard than some.
Posts: 1,262
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Post by doubleback on Nov 6, 2017 17:50:51 GMT -6
Thus far, from the other side of the table, castling works to a degree when you are just trying to kill each other, but falls flat when the missions require you to actually do something. If I am required to run straight at castled Marines my orks are a hot dumpster fire full of baby diapers and Indian food. If there is any mission objective outside of murder, I have a much higher win rate precisely because so many marine lists have dropped their mobility, and lack tactical flexibility.
Except if I am playing Primaris Ultramrines with Papa Smurf. Then they just shoot me completely off the table in 2 turns, call it a day, and go home and torture cats....or whatever it is Ultramarine players do when they are not using the plastic equivalent of a giant psnumatic dildo to ruin my day.
It also seems like a very uninteresting way to play, as you have basically just boiled the game down to target selection for artillery. This may explain why so many marine gun line practitioners appear dead on the inside when you look them in the eyes.
Anyway, my point is Ultramarine players are serial killers.
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Post by rogerspacem on Nov 6, 2017 19:48:46 GMT -6
Question: you going for competitive play or casual play (using a thematic army)?
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Post by Eric formerly Eric on Nov 6, 2017 20:44:44 GMT -6
Question: you going for competitive play or casual play (using a thematic army)? The context for this specific question is for dojo tournaments and the like. Otherwise, I don't really give a shit as long as I'm not tabled. My fun casual armies usually consist of a couple tanks or a dev squad with a big group of vanguard vets and bikers charging up the table. Sometimes I'll load up the stormraven with terminators or something. When I try to build something semi competitive, I try gunlines. I don't use/have guilliman, but I usually form a circle of devastators, sternguard and tanks with calgar and a lieutenant in the middle and some tacticals forming a bubble.
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rogerspacem (serious is me)
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Post by rogerspacem (serious is me) on Nov 6, 2017 21:13:21 GMT -6
Now that marine characters give area bonuses (rerolling 1s, etc), ive been struggling with balancing clumping my units to get bonuses and controlling the board/downfield objectives. I like having mobility, but i feel like spreading out units is a waste of captains/lieutenants. What have people found successful? When building gunlines, what units have people liked most? My 7th ed army had lots of vanguard vets, bikes and deepstrikers, so im not used to castling up. (On my company computer, but I figure to give you an answer, and I want to relax and talk about 40k before I pull an all nigther) Well when I play Dark Angels (before Flyer's couldn't grab objectives) I would have my flyers and black knights go grab objectives while my Crusader (depending) and my predator tanks held the back line. By turn three, if my opponent is reduced down enough I would start pushing my line forward, even so far as to charge my tanks into my opponent's squads. It really just depends what you plan on using. A good gunline will have done it's job by turn 3, giving you the time you need to run out there to grab objectives. If you are still castling up by turn 4, you best hope you are playing tactical escalation or your opponent wasn't able to score as much either. More importantly it really just depends on the type of mission you do. Usually competitive games will give you an idea beforehand what you might be getting yourself into. If you are playing open war...well that's hard to build around. If you are just doing malestorm missions then what you want is a mixture list, or run razor backs and/or rhinos. A decent selections to use
Company Masters or Captains: Honestly it's always a must to bring one or two of them. I try to limit to one for points cost, but having two doesn't hurt.
Techmarine: I think they help a lot, especially if you bring a Mech list as a gun line. Just keep him bare bones. he is okay in Close combat, and has okay options to fire, but mostly he is there to heal your vehicles.
Scouts: Believe it or not, scouts make for good screening, but mostly gives you extra room to push up your gun line as the scouts can move into deadman's land during deployment. This at least gets you closer to objectives. you can give them snipers to make your opponent freak out about his character being sniped, but I try to keep them barebones.
Whirlwinds: I don't like them as much, but I believe the relic version is pretty dope, but they do offer shots you need to trim down hordes. Just grab two three of them (pair up with a captain) and you will be good to go. Don't expect them to roll average, they tend to spike high or low. Use the STR 6 options. The STR 7 AP-1 is good, but 2d3 shots is just okay.
Predator: Probably the best for the buck, but tends to be shot down instantly because it does a good job. Still grab 3 with full lascannons (and if you manage to go first) you WILL destroy your opponent. I recommend 2 with Lascannons.
Land Raiders: Sucks if it is by itself, but if you got 3 or more than you got something to be reckon with. Plus have your caption following behind and now you got a mobile gunline with re-rolls.
Crusaders: Not really a gunline material vehicle, but if you got one or two, its a great anti horde monster.
Dev's: Best option honestly for a foot slogger gun line, just don't bunch up all your heavy guns in one squad. I think its better to split up your firepower into multiple squads.
Razorbacks: Honestly the best and cheapest and mobile heavy hitter amongst your whole army. They are just good overall.
Assault Marines (with jump jets): I haven't tried this out yet, but honestly if you got three squads of them for 240 points (I think) you got three deep striking squads that can drop onto objectives you cleared off from your shooting.
Thunder fire cannons: I don't owe them and I never have the option for them, so I can't say for certain if they are good for enough to be a gun line support.
Otherwise I think a gun line option is to be mechanized because if your opponent can't shoot down your vehicles enough you can easily zip across the battlefield to claim objectives. If foot slogging then I suggest either having some kind of deeps strike waiting in reserves till a turn or two later, or a squad or two of bikes (or something fast enough) to run out and grab objectives. Still these are just my thoughts. If you want I can try looking into ultramarines and see what new stuff they got to make them work.
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Post by Eric formerly Eric on Nov 6, 2017 21:46:18 GMT -6
thanks for your lowdown. I may go with a laspred and 2 lasbacks next to a captain and lieutenant with a stormraven acting as a frontline distraction. I often put a contemptor in a raven just to cause some additional chaos. I'm also debating an ancient. Idk if theyre worth the points without having aggressors or tons of special weapons. Vanguard vets might be a good deepstrike unit / late game obj securer.
(I gotta get myself some hellblasters since I sold mine to you. They are hella good for this kind of thing.)
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Post by rogerspacem on Nov 7, 2017 6:00:51 GMT -6
Two Lasbacks and one laspred? Not a whole lot in terms of gun lines. The storm Raven is good to keep up front. Lieutenant with captain is a good plan. Them together is having preferred enemy again.
As for the ancient, the ancient I would say is arguably good especially if you are running a foot slogging army/gun line. Honestly if you can find yourself a good ruins to hide your Devs then you put all three (captain, lieutenant, and ancient) bunched together with your devs and the ancient will make you earn your lost points back.
Yeah man post what you are thinking to use and we can trim it down. Also I'm not sure what you have available so if you leave a note saying you only have one model or so that be great.
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Post by rogerspacem on Nov 7, 2017 6:08:23 GMT -6
Also give your ancient the standard of terra (I believe that's it the name) to give you an extra d6 to determine if your duders fire or attack again. I believe it's a relic.
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Post by Nick P on Nov 7, 2017 8:23:20 GMT -6
I think the best tactic as the game continues to evolve is to invest in those razorbacks everyone loves, but actually use them as transports come turn 3 or 4 to shuffle your gunline forward and take objectives where needed. Rather than going for full gunline/castle/reroll city, take 3 razorbacks as well to shuffle small squads around when you need to.
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Post by Eric formerly Eric on Nov 7, 2017 8:39:23 GMT -6
I'm talking about a base. That's 8 lascannon shots on 3 hulls with over 1000 points to fill in around them. Plus, the raven can do some heavy lifting and i can throw a missile dev squad in there. But how much do you want to commit to anti-tank as opposed to anti-infantry?
I guess the other issue is putting all of our midrange units in the gunline (ie. Plasma, sternguard, tacticals, primaris), since they are only very effective from 15" or less.
Ill throw up my list later today. I pretty much have 1 of everything. I definitely want some ven dreads or a redemptor for the gunline but a contemptor is all ive got at the moment.
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Post by Eric formerly Eric on Nov 7, 2017 8:41:25 GMT -6
Good thinking Nick. That makes lots of sense for mobility.
Since I've only played 2 games with a gunline (both vs necrons which are anti-lascannon), ive been wondering how the game evolves in the later turns. What if i end up playing against another gunline? Etc.
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Post by Eric formerly Eric on Nov 7, 2017 11:07:45 GMT -6
Here's what i just came up with:
++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [75 PL, 1427pts] ++
+ No Force Org Slot +
**Chapter Selection**: Ultramarines
+ HQ +
Lieutenants [4 PL, 63pts] . Lieutenant: Master-crafted boltgun
Marneus Calgar [10 PL, 200pts]: Terminator Armour
+ Troops +
Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 100pts]: Bolt rifle, 4x Intercessor, Intercessor Sergeant
Tactical Squad [5 PL, 93pts] . 3x Space Marine . Space Marine Sergeant: Combi-plasma . Space Marine w/Special Weapon: Plasma gun
Tactical Squad [9 PL, 104pts]: 7x Space Marine, Space Marine Sergeant
+ Heavy Support +
Devastator Squad [8 PL, 140pts] . Space Marine . Space Marine Sergeant . Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Missile launcher . Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Missile launcher . Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Missile launcher
Predator [9 PL, 190pts]: Twin lascannon, Two Lascannons
+ Flyer +
Stormraven Gunship [15 PL, 307pts]: Twin assault cannon, Two Hurricane Bolters, Two Stormstrike Missile Launchers, Typhoon missile launcher
+ Dedicated Transport +
Razorback [5 PL, 115pts]: Twin lascannon
Razorback [5 PL, 115pts]: Twin lascannon
++ Vanguard Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [36 PL, 568pts] ++
+ HQ +
Captain [6 PL, 97pts]: Jump Pack, Power sword
+ Elites +
Contemptor Dreadnought [8 PL, 165pts]: Combi-bolter, Dreadnought combat weapon, Kheres pattern assault cannon
Sternguard Veteran Squad [14 PL, 180pts] . Space Marine Veteran: Special issue boltgun . Space Marine Veteran: Special issue boltgun . Space Marine Veteran: Special issue boltgun . Space Marine Veteran: Special issue boltgun . Space Marine Veteran: Special issue boltgun . Space Marine Veteran: Special issue boltgun . Space Marine Veteran: Special issue boltgun . Space Marine Veteran: Special issue boltgun . Space Marine Veteran: Special issue boltgun . Veteran Sergeant: Special issue boltgun
Vanguard Veteran Squad [8 PL, 126pts]: Jump Pack . Space Marine Veteran: Bolt Pistol & Chainsword . Space Marine Veteran: Bolt Pistol & Chainsword . Space Marine Veteran: 2x Lightning Claw . Space Marine Veteran: 2x Lightning Claw . Veteran Sergeant: 2x Lightning Claw
++ Total: [111 PL, 1995pts] 9 command points total (+2 from calgar)
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doubleback
novice
I rock harder than most, yet less hard than some.
Posts: 1,262
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Post by doubleback on Nov 7, 2017 11:47:14 GMT -6
That dreadnought can deep strike, correct?
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Post by Eric formerly Eric on Nov 7, 2017 12:10:01 GMT -6
Na he rides in the storm raven. He has 9" movement too, which is great.
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doubleback
novice
I rock harder than most, yet less hard than some.
Posts: 1,262
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Post by doubleback on Nov 7, 2017 12:25:37 GMT -6
I am thinking of picking up a fire raptor for my DG, though primarily because I can't use storm ravens with my army.
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