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Post by rogerspacem on Nov 7, 2017 23:10:37 GMT -6
Check to see if this is accurate.
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Post by Eric formerly Eric on Nov 7, 2017 23:11:55 GMT -6
You battlescribe isnt wrong. I just dont know what you dropped besides lightning claws in order to add more tactical squads and the TH/SS captain.
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Post by Eric formerly Eric on Nov 7, 2017 23:18:38 GMT -6
Oh it looks like you dropped the devastators in that list. They definitely arent terribly necessary, so i can go with more tacticals.
I can drop the intercessors too, but i don't get why people hate on them. Most people expect a screen/bubble, so they bring anti horde units to mulch through. 2 intercessors wounds cost 20 pts as opposed to 2 tactical marines for 26. And every overcharged plasma, autocannon, etc killing intercessors is one less thats targeting my tanks.
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Post by rogerspacem on Nov 7, 2017 23:28:19 GMT -6
That's true. I don't hate them I actually believe they are worth 100 points. It just when I build lists I try to see a units purpose. The intercessors are pretty straight forward with no versatility. They do make good screens, as you mentioned. I was just trying to find more purpose for them other be meat shields.
Devs are great but they do sacrifice a lot of mobility (in my books). I think the list here offers a little bit of everything you want. Just boils down to tactical finesse and how you use them. Still play around with the idea. If you got any other lists or modifications to the one now let me know. I particularly enjoy list building.
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Post by Eric formerly Eric on Nov 8, 2017 11:22:12 GMT -6
Yeah your list looks good, i just havent used many tacticals this edition.
Also, i actually like giving vanguard a mix of claws and chainswords instead of all pswords. Because when you start to take casualties, you can remove the chainswords and only lose a little punch. Let's take 1dual claw and 1 chainsword vs. 2 pswords. 48 points vs 44 points. Against meq: Group a averages 1.3333 wounds while group b averages 1.1111. Now what really convinces me is after you take casualties. Let's say you lose one guy to overwatch. Group a now averages 1 wound while group b averages .555555 against meq.
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Post by rogerspacem on Nov 8, 2017 12:04:01 GMT -6
That's true. Hmm if we drop two swords we have 8 points plus the 4 points floating around. So yeah you can still do the 3 twin claws vanguard. My only scoff with the vanguard though is them making the charge on the drop. Aside from command points do you have anything in your army that help add or re-roll to charges?
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Post by rogerspacem on Nov 8, 2017 12:05:15 GMT -6
Oh who is your warlord again? Cargus (spelled wrong) what's his trait again? Anyone carrying any relics?
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Post by Eric formerly Eric on Nov 8, 2017 12:14:34 GMT -6
Calgar gets +2 command points and has the trait where i get command points back on a 5+. So tons of command points for me.
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Post by Joelercoaster on Nov 8, 2017 12:23:02 GMT -6
I like the idea of the Claw/Chainsword combo. Even if it had similar dmg output to the all-powerswords-all-day route, you get a big benefit once you drop 1 guy (up to however many chainswords you took). Same reason I don't give every termagant a devourer.
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Post by Eric formerly Eric on Nov 8, 2017 12:24:31 GMT -6
For relics, it'll change depending on what i need. I could give the relic bolter to the lieutenant, i could give better armor or shield to the captain. Idk. I haven't used any relics before because i have only played against index armies so I didn't think it was fair.
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Post by rogerspacem on Nov 8, 2017 12:54:07 GMT -6
Relics are helpful but not over powered. You should try them out.
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Post by Joelercoaster on Nov 8, 2017 13:38:54 GMT -6
To be fair, any codex army has a massive advantage over an index army, so leaving out certain tidbits like that can be very sporting. Depending on what relics you have access to and your build, they can do some really cool things (I'm a big fan of Kraken's -1 to hit camo to help make a walking tyrant (hopefully) viable).
To the general point of the thread, I do like the idea of adding mobility to the list. I think a castle contingent can be fine, but it'll suffer for all the reasons mentioned. When I think of a firebase, rather than building an army around it I think of a smaller detachment... for me it would look like a Malanthrope babysitter, Hive Guard with Harpoons, Biovores, and a T-fex. Granted, all of that can be upward of 750 points, depending on unit sizes and such, so it would scale depending on the game size. That sort of setup probably also wants a big unit of gaunts for bubblewrap, too. I prefer the bulk of my force to be mobile - that's why I'm really wanting to test out the Shockcannons for Hive Guard - less range, but assault so you can factor in movement, and be a player for objectives & other things as well.
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Post by Eric formerly Eric on Nov 8, 2017 13:45:49 GMT -6
So one of the issues for marine firebases is that our tanks dont benefit from chapter tactics. So they don't get to retreat from combat and fire. As a result, we need to put more protection and buffer around our tanks than usual. Plus, marine characters give area bonuses. So it's hard to build an effective heavy fire base without a couple hqs and a bunch of buffer/chaff units, plus maybe a combat unit to clear out attackers once they breach the buffer. This ends up being like 12-1500 points right there.
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Post by Joelercoaster on Nov 8, 2017 15:08:29 GMT -6
Well, I don't think any of the units I mentioned for my own would, either - I'm pretty glad the "shoot after falling back" deal is pretty limited... although in fairness an army like Nids has easy access to probably one of the best chaff buffer units - termagaunts. 4 points, S4 gun because why not, completely fearless when backed by Synapse, and comes in broods of 30. It's amazing the area denial one full brood can pull off.
Tanks, at least add some mobility to those heavy weapons (at the cost of -1 to hit, sure, but that's better than being stuck behind a rock with no LoS). How do you feel about things like Devastators on high ground (top level ruins) and such as a more defendable (and hopefully cheaper?) set of big guns?
There's definitely a balance to be struck - so far I'm liking the give and take of the different types of selections, and the things it lets you play with.
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Post by Eric formerly Eric on Nov 9, 2017 9:18:42 GMT -6
So I used a similar list last night in a win. Played against Matt's Blood Angels, so I definitely had an advantage by virtue of having a codex and trying a more competitive list. We did a maelstrom mission, so he actually had a points advantage for most of game.
Matt had lots of armor and a few elite combat units (th/ss termis and sanguinary guard), so I actually started my sternguard and vanguard in the backfield, since i knew hed be charging. Put the contemptor in the raven to go bash his predator/lazerbacks. Gunline worked well and most things went as planned. Predator goes down so fast, but I was really able to cripple Matt's army in the first 2 turns. Highlights include a barrage of lascannons into his leviathan and an epic dual between Calgar and Dante.
Of course, as maelstrom games often go, there were some surprises and Matt made some great risky moves that paid off. He lunged mephiston forward to smite calgar to death, used command points to hit first and kill my captain after he charged 2 terminators, and had a razorback kill my contemptor in overwatch (rolling a 6 for damage). He also almost sniped my lieutenant to death and I had to command reroll a save to keep him alive. He also ate my vanguard with Dante after they slew the sniper scouts.
It was a great game, and I think the list performed as it should. I really do need to play a codex army though to weather strategems, relics etc.
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