doubleback
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Post by doubleback on Sept 21, 2017 9:21:48 GMT -6
A lot of it was the same old green tide that Orks are pretty much required to run at the moment, and I brought the storm boys back out to keep people on their toes first turn. I've started running just a vanilla war boss, because I was not getting my points worth from named war bosses, excepting maybe Zhad.
-One Weird Boy - Not enough, and that will probably only be more evident when we get more powers in the codex
-KFF - Still a must take
-Boyz Vs. Armor - this can work, if you do the point match up right. I foolishly told Eric that dropping 30 boyz against a single armored unit was a bad point investment, then doubled down by ramming 30 storm boyz into a tank, which then proceeded to hold them for most of the game. I did put a stop to the twin autocannons it was sporting, but I am sure that could have been handled much better.
The Big change to this list was the gargantuan Squiggoth and the Tank Bustas
GS- This thing is an absolute beast and an excellent addition to the list for it's cost. It gives amazing protection for any shooty unit it carries (Units in the Howdah can fire even if the GS is locked in combat) and is a monster in close combat between the tusks and stampede ability. At 35 wounds T8 (with a KFF) it is very resilient. Literally the only downside I can see at this point is that because of the weird key words it sports, it can be neither healed nor repaired, which makes the Big Mek inside it somewhat over costed. I will have to play test it some more to see if the KFF point cost is worth it, but initially I would say yes.
Also it looks hilarious.
Tank Bustas - Horrifying against armored vehicles, and actually survivable on the back of a GS. Weight of fire plus re-rolls make them very dangerous. If I had to do it again, I would not bring the Bomb squigs...it was 40 points that you will rarely get to use because of the way they have to disembark. I look forward to seeing how they perform against flyers.
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doubleback
novice
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Posts: 1,262
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Post by doubleback on Sept 21, 2017 9:22:44 GMT -6
I think you're better off using a battalion, an outrider, and a vanguard detachment instead of just a big battalion in order to get an additional 2 CPs, but this list looks solid dude. I set it up that way, for some reason the list just pulled over as one big blob. I had 8CPs for the game
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doubleback
novice
I rock harder than most, yet less hard than some.
Posts: 1,262
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Post by doubleback on Sept 21, 2017 9:25:58 GMT -6
At this point my lists are getting better, but positioning and objective awareness continue to be my two biggest weaknesses by far
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Post by Eric formerly Eric on Sept 21, 2017 10:03:33 GMT -6
Yeah man, positioning is huge for combat in this edition. One thing to remember when charging is that only one model actually has to make it within 1". So if your trying to surround a vehicle and roll a huge charge, you can try to move up a bunch of models but keep them a few inches away so that they have more maneuverability when piling in. Its the models that are base-to-base that are stuck.
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doubleback
novice
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Posts: 1,262
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Post by doubleback on Sept 21, 2017 12:03:46 GMT -6
The problem I have found with that is that Orks rely on weight of attacks. by keeping the front liners an inch away (by my understanding) the second row of guys do not get their attacks in. Conversely if I move the front row into direct base to base contact, the second row of guys also get their attacks in. Is this a correct understanding?
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doubleback
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Posts: 1,262
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Post by doubleback on Nov 21, 2017 9:49:24 GMT -6
Just saw the list for the guy that took 3rd in Atlanta with Orks, who ran some crazy stuff. His loophole with artillery crews is a weird kind of genius that I think I am going to have to steal.
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Post by Nick P on Nov 21, 2017 11:30:44 GMT -6
What loophole? I'm interested!
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Post by Eric formerly Eric on Nov 21, 2017 12:13:57 GMT -6
Was he using artillery crews as ablative wounds?
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doubleback
novice
I rock harder than most, yet less hard than some.
Posts: 1,262
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Post by doubleback on Nov 21, 2017 12:37:56 GMT -6
As I understand it (and apparently as the judges at Warzone Atlanta understood it as well) rules as written for Orks basically say that: 1: Ork crews can be placed as separate models at deployment, and thus do not need to maintain coherency 2: These crews can only be targeted if they are the closest models 3: (and this is the one I think is a little suspect, but also the least important one) RAW says that a gun goes away when "the last gunner within 6 inches dies"...thus if your entire crew is more than 6 inches away and dies, the gun just keeps going until destroyed
So a big part of what this guy did was put his artillery up the field in deployment, then spread the 5 man crews out so much that it was impossible to deep strike into his backfield. Because the guns were always in front, you can't pick off the individual grots to open up a space until you have destroyed the much harder to kill guns in front of them. It basically gave him full control of a large portion of the board and the objectives therein unless you wanted to try and charge in...through a giant moving mob of 90-120 boys. I believe he came in 3rd overall with a 4-1 record, losing to the guy who came in first.
He also used a Gargantuan Squiggoth, because once you have that model you never want to take it off the table, but that is neither here nor there.
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Post by Nick P on Nov 21, 2017 14:30:45 GMT -6
Interesting, I was hoping it was some clever strategy but it sounds like its an intentional perversion of the rules to gain an advantage, which kinda sucks.
The big gunz and mek gunz rules do technically say that each gun and or grot gunner in the unit only needs to be deployed within 3" of one other model, and that they act as individual units from that point on.
But it also says that the guns can't fire at all unless there is a grot within 3" of it, and the same grot can't operate more than 1 gun at a time, so he would have had to have at least one grot for every gun and within 3" of that gun, though I guess 5 crew per gun does allow for a lot of area denial in the deployment zone, since you can just daisy chain them backwards to block reserves.
Did he just not shoot with the artillery, and just use them as a mechanism to block off parts of the board? Also, T5 with a 5+ save isn't all that tough - even with 6 wounds. Hmmm I definitely think GW will rectify this in the next FAQ pretty quickly - they have been johnny on the spot for fixing glaring loopholes like this, like when they fixed the rules that allowed flyers to control objectives.
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Post by Russell on Nov 21, 2017 14:37:57 GMT -6
Yeah that wasn't as cool as I'd hoped.
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doubleback
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Post by doubleback on Nov 21, 2017 15:12:57 GMT -6
Unless you are using the third part (which I don't think even works, the way I read it) then I would argue this IS a clever strategy, and is not perverting anything, anymore than clustering a massive amount of troops around Guiliman to allow for unending re-rolls is a perversion of the game. The trick (as I understand it, its on the front line gaming podcast if you would like to check it out)is to put all your Gunz in one unit. That way you can space them as gun, 3 inches, grot, 3 inches, gun, 3 inches, etc. After that the remaining grot gunners can break off into 5 man units and be daisy chained out for a pretty enormous board coverage. Unless you lose turn one (which if you are using a large unit of mek gunz and a bunch of guys in a GS is much less likely) then that first turn you can spread those now individual 5 man units out even further (and they are still un-targetable from the "front"). You can have 5 gunz operated by one 5 man crew, leaving 4 5man grot squads sitting in your back field un-targetable. Do this correctly and you are looking at something like a 5-6 drop army. with enormous board control.
While you are correct, and you can certainly shoot the guns off the board, it's been my experience that most people are much more concerned with the giant mob of Orks runnning at them, or the heavily armored GS charging forward with its rampage rule, rather than taking a minimum of 2 turns to open up a 3rd turn deep strike and taking out a BS 4 one shot artillery piece.
As for a glaring loophole, I am not sure this is. He is allowing one grot per gun, and the rules look to have been worded very specifically, which to me would be odd in the absence of intention. Otherwise why specify that after deployment the grots split off as a separate unit? Orks are an army with very little shooting and are reliant almost completely on melee combat. This strikes me as giving them an option for some backfield control that they otherwise completely lacking. Speaking from experience (other Eric can back me up on this) if you get units into the Ork backfield they can pretty much clear the whole thing in 1-2 turns, forcing the giant mob to turn around, or forfeit any objectives behind you.
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doubleback
novice
I rock harder than most, yet less hard than some.
Posts: 1,262
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Post by doubleback on Nov 21, 2017 15:15:23 GMT -6
Yeah that wasn't as cool as I'd hoped. At this point, with how quickly we dropped from a solid army to a turn two tabling with a very long set up, anything that works and gives us a chance at victory is by definition, cool.
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Post by Nick P on Nov 21, 2017 15:17:24 GMT -6
The perversion comes from the way its worded where it says "must be placed within 3" of at least one other model".
Originally that's how GW had the rules for Coherency reading as well in the main rules - and people argued that it meant you could take a 10 man squad and deploy it in 5 sections of 2 models and it counted as coherency.
They FAQd it almost immediately, and my gut tells me that these Mek Gunz rules are intended to be much the same - and not allowing for you to take the gun and 5 crew and deploy them in 3 separate 2-model units, which it sounds like is how this player was protecting his deployment zone. What GW likely intended was for the gun and all 5 crew to be deployed together, but to be allowed to operate independently thereafter.
Meaning he would have much less board coverage, would open himself up to deep strike reserves to counter his strategy, and would require a bit of risk rather than a guarantee of safety. That's what my gut tells me is the intention.
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doubleback
novice
I rock harder than most, yet less hard than some.
Posts: 1,262
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Post by doubleback on Nov 21, 2017 15:24:54 GMT -6
But in that case they were making something new up. Nowhere in the rules did it say that the single unit could be split. They were assuming something that was not there. In this case, the rules specifically say the grots and the gun become separate models after deployment. If this were not intentional, why even make that rule? You've taken the time to add an extra rule, one assumes there has to be some point to it.
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