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Post by Nick P on Aug 2, 2017 11:42:38 GMT -6
thank you GW for putting such a large number of codex entries that you don't make models for right now So before you go and do that, just know that GW is actively removing units from codexes that they don't have models for - there are a bunch of bike characters and dreadnought variants missing from the SM codex, forcing players to use the Index rules for any models they have from days of old that fit the bill. So just know that when the Ork codex drops, you won't have the bike warbosses or skorchas in it unless they go and remake the models for release with the codex, which seems plausible but unlikely. You can still use the index rules, but don't be surprised when you get the codex later this year and find them missing.
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doubleback
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Post by doubleback on Aug 2, 2017 12:20:30 GMT -6
Wait...so I could still use the index rules even if they are not in the codex? That seems like a recipe for disaster in a game where they are trying to continuously balance unit strength....and I can't really see them getting rid of a War Boss on a bike. It is a fairly iconic unit plus the FW model is a pretty big seller...though I guess they could always move the unit's rules just over to FW completely.
They could conversely just re-release the upgrade kit for the War Trakk...in which case I would still rather use my scratch built ones because War Trakks look like they were designed by a 6th grader using CAD.
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Post by Nick P on Aug 2, 2017 14:39:41 GMT -6
Yeah you would do like a hodgepodge of the index rules with the points costs from the codex - like if the points cost for a big shoota differ between the codex or the index, you would use the cost from the codex.
I feel like the twin autocannon dreadnought, librarian/captain/chaplain/techmarine on bike are also fairly iconic, but none of them made the space marine book - so just prepare for it is all I'm saying. GW doesn't put rules in their codexes based on forgeworld models, so the fact that the warboss bike is one of their best selling models won't mean much for GWs decision to include it in the codex unfortunately.
It goes back to their philosophy of being able to point at a box on the shelf for new players - if a new kid comes in and wants to buy the warboss on bike in the codex, and they have to shrug and say we don't have any or tell him to cut up a box of nob bikers with a sharp knife in order to make one for himself, they've very likely lost a sale or will have an angry parent knocking on the door. So this is just easier - having only models physically sold at GW shops in the codex, so they can just point to the wall and go "this guy".
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doubleback
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Post by doubleback on Aug 2, 2017 14:45:49 GMT -6
Man they removed ALL those bikers?
That is savagery, Chaplain on a bike was an awesome model...
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doubleback
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Post by doubleback on Aug 2, 2017 14:47:21 GMT -6
But then, I guess the model I've seen was cool because it was a convert.
But they are still legal to use? Are there restrictions to when you can?
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Post by Nick P on Aug 2, 2017 14:52:36 GMT -6
They're still in the index so you can still use them, but you have to use the rules from the index and the points (where possible) from the codex, so its just a hassle. But at the end of the day, with models all getting their rules in the box now, they can easily just release a bright shiny new ork warboss on bike (tm) and have the rules inside the box with points etc, so that players still have all the most updated rules as needed.
It means they can be selective with the codex and only release rules for current models, knowing that any updated models will just be "in addition to" anyway. So its not nearly the death sentence for units that it used to be when they were dropped from a codex (like the atrocity that was the 7th edition dark eldar codex...we lost like 10 models, it was a joke).
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doubleback
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Post by doubleback on Aug 3, 2017 10:07:14 GMT -6
Last night was a win again, but I am still very up and down when it comes to the Pain Boy. His save is almost meaningless, even in a group of 60 boyz (I think he saved 4 last night) but he again brought Ghaz back up to full strength mid game, allowing me to charge him back in. I Think maybe one is only worth it specifically with Ghaz, as other war bosses tend to be a bit more disposable.
-I am seriously considering taking the Skorchas off the Kill Tank loadout, they are there to discourage a charge, but no one seems that interested in charging the tank compared to simply shooting the shit out of it. They are an expensive option with a short range compared to missile racks, which would add some nice anti armor punch.
-Weird boys surrounded by Boyz can effectively shut down enemy psykers with about a 90% success rate. Half their value comes from completely invalidating much more expensive psychic units. By second or third turn my opponents effectively can't cast anything unless they are hiding on the other table edge.
-Up until this game I forgot that choppas add an extra attack...so Boyz are even better than I thought.
-So far I struggle with whether Storm Boys with Da Vulcha are worth it. They are fast as hell but get shot apart easily, and for the cost I could field two more units of 30 boyz. Had I not had a card allowing me to bring back the entire unit of 30 last night, their overall point efficiency would not have been great.
-Kill Tank continues to chew up units long range, and is a good answer to shooty units trying to pick my boys apart. I am tempted to try Lootas but I think they are not going to be able to match the tank's Giga Shoota for efficiency.
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doubleback
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Post by doubleback on Aug 10, 2017 9:47:49 GMT -6
Played kind of a goofy list last night just to try a few things out against a force well positioned to deal with a horde army- ++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Orks) [70 PL, 1189pts] ++
+ HQ [23 PL, 417pts] +
Big Mek on Bike [6 PL, 101pts]: Choppa, Kustom Force Field [20pts]
Big Mek on Bike [6 PL, 101pts]: Choppa, Kustom Force Field [20pts]
Ghazghkull Thraka [11 PL, 215pts]
+ Troops [28 PL, 408pts] +
Boyz [13 PL, 189pts] . Boss Nob [15pts]: Big Choppa [9pts], Slugga . 29x Ork Boy W/ Slugga & Choppa [174pts]
Boyz [13 PL, 189pts] . Boss Nob [15pts]: Big Choppa [9pts], Slugga . 29x Ork Boy W/ Slugga & Choppa [174pts]
Gretchin [2 PL, 30pts]: 10x Gretchin [30pts]
+ Heavy Support [19 PL, 364pts] +
Gorkanaut [19 PL, 364pts]: 2x Rokkit Launcha [24pts], Skorcha [17pts], 2x Twin Big Shoota [28pts]
++ Air Wing Detachment +1CP (Orks) [23 PL, 495pts] ++
+ Flyer [23 PL, 495pts] +
Burna-bommer [8 PL, 156pts]: Skorcha Missiles [20pts], 2x Supa Shoota [20pts], Twin Big Shoota [14pts]
Dakkajet [7 PL, 148pts]: 6x Supa Shoota [60pts]
Wazbom Blastajet [8 PL, 191pts]: 2x Teleport Mega-Blasta [36pts], Kustom Force Field [20pts], Smasha Gun [16pts], 2x Supa Shoota [20pts]
++ Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment (Orks) [15 PL, 314pts] ++
+ Lord of War [15 PL, 314pts] +
Kill Tank [15 PL, 314pts]: Big Shoota [6pts], Bursta [38pts], Grot Riggers [RAW PROBLEMATIC] [7pts], Rack of Rokkits [28pts], Reinforced Ram [6pts], Twin Big Shoota [14pts]
++ Total: [108 PL, 1998pts] ++
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doubleback
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Post by doubleback on Aug 10, 2017 10:07:07 GMT -6
While I admittedly had a terrible night with the dice (I failed every CP re-roll and saved only about 6 wounds with the KFFs, so far under the average 30% that it boggles the mind) not to mention the fact that guard seized the initiative, I think there are still a few takeaways.
Gorkanaut - Fun, but for fewer points you can take a kill tank with better BS, 25% more wounds, and better weapons options. In defense of this model I probably should have used it in CC a bit more, but my opponent blocked it off with a wall of heavy flamer tanks, putting him in a pretty bad position to assault. Probably worth another look to confirm the Tank's superiority.
Gretchin - I don't even know why they exist at their point cost. Even in cover they are unlikely to survive one round of shooting at T2
Wazbom Blastajet - Arguably it's best weapons have a 24 inch range on a jet with a 20 inch minimum movement and no ability to hover. Hits hard and at BS4 hits surprisingly often, but has to take at least a turn or two off from firing at the best targets every game.
Burna-bommer - Unless I am misreading how it's bomb works (I beleive it can only use the big bomb once a game) not worth it even a little
Dakkajet - Oddly, surprisingly effective at medium to light targets. 18 S6 AP-1 shots at BS4 can ruin small units or lightly armored vehicles. More wounds than I thought as well, but its diminishing returns on BS hit it hard. Probably not worth the points.
Bursta (on the kill tank) - Hits like a ton of bricks against T8 IF you aren't rolling a nearly mathematically impossible number of 1s....so definitely worth looking at again, especially if I decide to run 2 KTs
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Post by rogerspacem on Aug 10, 2017 10:44:44 GMT -6
Gretchin are honestly just brought along in an army list if the player has points to spare. They are cheap troop unit to fill out detachments, but yeah they die pretty quick. I guess you can use them to screen characters (if those said characters are foot slogging) or force opponent's to charge them, or have them to hold objectives. That's pretty much it. Can't rely on them to do much else.
I didn't see your list play out last night, but seeing you got seized I'm guessing it might have played better if you managed to go first plus your legendary rolling dice skills wasn't helping.
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doubleback
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Post by doubleback on Aug 10, 2017 15:59:19 GMT -6
Yeah, going first would have helped, there is no denying that, and had I rolled something approaching average my vehicles would have survived a lot longer. I also purposely picked a goofy list for who I was fighting, so I was never going to do overly well. I just don't think that Ork walkers (while undeniably better) are just necessarily competitive due to their quirky rules. Deff Dreads are over costed for their speed, Kill Kanz have a punishing moral rule, Naughts are pretty solid, but are out preformed by other units, and the Stompa is......its just so expensive. I am not saying they might not have their place in a relaxed meta like ours, but they are never going to be a good point investment (although they do better with power level). RIght now the Dread Mob is kinda dead, without some Forgeworld help.
I am basically just playing with some lists to give new units a try so I don't get burnt out moving 120 boyz across the field every game. I am not complaining about Orks, they are definitely competitive, but they are very much one note at the moment. Our group is a competitive level that allows for some fluff and I intend to take advantage of that.
Gretchen are garbage, they are just a tax if you need to fill out a battalion. I would like to see GW do something with them, maybe make them our go-to shooting unit or something
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Post by rogerspacem on Aug 11, 2017 5:11:52 GMT -6
Lol a Gretchen rebellion! Yeah it would be pretty cool. Still I think walkers in general aren't so hot, or rather big targets in general. Tend to be a thing in this game. Lists I that I watch tend to have many other big walkers to support them (or rather make your opponent freak out and split their fire). But yeah your "dreads" do have some crazy rules that hurt themselves way too much. Kinda Forces the use of green tides every time.
As for our group, I don't think we are that competitive...well sometimes we can be, but to be fair a lot of people (old and new) are still experimenting with their armies (like you and myself.) people tend to bring their best units and see how it works then work their way down on the power latter. We are at the stage of working downwards and trying different things out for kicks.
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doubleback
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Post by doubleback on Aug 11, 2017 6:26:32 GMT -6
Agreed, I think we are at about just the right competitive level in our average weekly games
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doubleback
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Post by doubleback on Sept 21, 2017 8:58:42 GMT -6
Tried a new list out last night
++ Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment (Orks) [21 PL, 405pts] ++
+ Lord of War [21 PL, 405pts] +
Gargantuan Squiggoth [21 PL, 405pts]: 2x Big Shoota [12pts], Big Zzappa [18pts], Big Zzappa [18pts], Huge Tusks [7pts]
++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Orks) [99 PL, 1595pts] ++
+ HQ [24 PL, 419pts] +
Big Mek [5 PL, 75pts]: Choppa, Kustom Force Field [20pts]
Big Mek on Bike [6 PL, 110pts]: Big Choppa [9pts], Kustom Force Field [20pts]
Boss Zagstruk [5 PL, 88pts]
Warboss [4 PL, 84pts]: Attack Squig, Kustom Shoota [4pts], Power Klaw [25pts]
Weirdboy [4 PL, 62pts]
+ Troops [39 PL, 567pts] +
Boyz [13 PL, 189pts] . Boss Nob [15pts]: Big Choppa [9pts], Slugga . 29x Ork Boy W/ Slugga & Choppa [174pts]
Boyz [13 PL, 189pts] . Boss Nob [15pts]: Big Choppa [9pts], Slugga . 29x Ork Boy W/ Slugga & Choppa [174pts]
Boyz [13 PL, 189pts] . Boss Nob [15pts]: Big Choppa [9pts], Slugga . 29x Ork Boy W/ Slugga & Choppa [174pts]
+ Elites [21 PL, 369pts] +
Mad Dok Grotsnik [7 PL, 74pts]
Tankbustas [7 PL, 139pts]: 2x Bomb Squig [20pts] . Boss Nob [17pts]: Rokkit Launcha [12pts] . 6x Tankbusta [102pts]: 6x Rokkit Launcha [72pts]
Tankbustas [7 PL, 156pts]: 2x Bomb Squig [20pts] . Boss Nob [17pts]: Rokkit Launcha [12pts] . 7x Tankbusta [119pts]: 7x Rokkit Launcha [84pts]
+ Fast Attack [15 PL, 240pts] +
Stormboyz [5 PL, 80pts] . Boss Nob [8pts]: Choppa . 9x Stormboy [72pts]
Stormboyz [5 PL, 80pts] . Boss Nob [8pts]: Choppa . 9x Stormboy [72pts]
Stormboyz [5 PL, 80pts] . Boss Nob [8pts]: Choppa . 9x Stormboy [72pts]
++ Total: [120 PL, 2000pts] ++
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Post by Nick P on Sept 21, 2017 9:18:22 GMT -6
I think you're better off using a battalion, an outrider, and a vanguard detachment instead of just a big battalion in order to get an additional 2 CPs, but this list looks solid dude.
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