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Post by Nick P on May 7, 2014 12:22:07 GMT -6
Thats a really good point, I forgot about rules like that - however, to put the shoe on the other foot, there are also dozens of rules that will have to be changed for the new psychic phase regardless, so something somewhere is getting re-tooled one way or another.
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2014 13:04:57 GMT -6
Thats a really good point, I forgot about rules like that - however, to put the shoe on the other foot, there are also dozens of rules that will have to be changed for the new psychic phase regardless, so something somewhere is getting re-tooled one way or another. I just hope its a simple fix, it'd be straight bs if books that are less then a year old needed massive FAQ packets just to be functional. The one thing on my wish list for 6.5/7 is that the rumors about pistols are true. A while back some said in 6.5 that pistols would be able to be used in CC, if so I'll have to make some seraphim because str 4 ap 5 on my sisters is actually really solid. I also might finally have a use for plasma and inferno pistols....
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Post by Joelercoaster on May 7, 2014 14:09:42 GMT -6
A full FAQ release may well be a thing. Just sayin'.
A lot of people seem to be of a mind that the new Psy Phase will borrow heavily from the fantasy ruleset. How heavily is yet to be determined...
Will the system still be based off of Ld? Will Deny The Witch (which is a brand new idea, mind you) stay or go? This .... yeah. Could just be crazy.
I really don't want to wait 2+ weeks for details. But I don't know that I have a choice... sighs.
If Psy is still Ld based, I want to see what power dice + shadows does to enemy psykers. Of course, it could also be Errata'd to do something completely different, so...
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Post by Nick P on May 7, 2014 16:08:01 GMT -6
Or it could very well be simply, roll D6+X for how many dice you can use to generate psychic powers, then take leadership tests to use them, only using the dice in your pool - aka, if you have 7 dice, you get to roll 3 leadership tests and then you're done. Then your opponent denies the withc, etc.
Easy enough to add that one mechanic, completely screws things like jetseer stars in that the number of spells cast is limited, and allows for deny the witch.
Is it this coming WD that has the new 40k rules (some of them) described in it? I'd like to get it so we can see if we can play a few test games using the proposed rules, to get a feel for what the differences really are.
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Post by Matt W. on May 7, 2014 17:05:56 GMT -6
I think if a physic phase occurred before the movement phase it might add some depth that the game currently lacks. That way you would have to position your pyskers for action a turn in advance.
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Post by Joelercoaster on May 7, 2014 17:47:40 GMT -6
The WD doesn't have any actual rules. It just talked about the Psy Phase being a thing.
And Matt, how is that different from what we have now? Anything not a witchfire *is* done before the movement phase already.
As to the idea of using the die pool for the Ld tests... I can only see bad things from that. Which means that may be the way it goes... but that puts severe hurt on armies that take lots of Psykers (read, Nids) and just gives a bonus to single, powerful psykers.
Maybe my pain/drug addled brain isn't looking at it right, but let's compare a single Farseer to a standard tyranid army (Tyrant/Terv/Zoans)
So the 'Seer gets a d6+3 dice... for math let's say you roll a 3.5. You can cast all 3 powers, and have a .5 for dispelling. Or cast a warp charge 2 power (how would that even take effect? The concept doesn't mesh) and have the 2.5 left over.
Nids, 3 Psykers, giving d6+5. That's 8.5, which isn't even enough for your bugs to cast their powers, let alone have anything to dispel with.
What if instead of a base Ld test, it was a matter of "Roll dice, add your Ld". That would mean more Psykers = more dice, which is only a good thing (not spreading the butter too thin). The "use Ld" mechanic would still function in terms of "deny the witch" as you can pump dice into your Sgt or whoever is denying, and Shadow would still have essentially the same effect (but would also make denying that much harder). It doesn't solve the problem of Adam Will or how Hoods work, but USR's are easy to update, and the Hood just needs to let you use that character's Ld for any Deny tests in the same radius and it's close to the same thing.
This could also incorporate the "X or higher to pass" that Fantasy uses. It could be a simple roll-off, which means the opponent *really* needs ot either bring psykers, or be *really* conscious of how they spend dispel dice... because if you have no dice left to roll, then I don't have to roll any (my base Ld beats your 0).
Eeeeeeenteresting...
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Post by Nick P on May 7, 2014 21:07:22 GMT -6
Also keep in mind in fantasy you roll a separate pool of dispel dice during your opponents phase...so I wouldn't see a huge leap in assuming it's the same here. Meaning your 8.5 dice gives you 4 ld tests essentially. Again, very convoluted the way I tried to force it in without effecting any outside rules, and I in no way expect it to play that way, but it is, strictly speaking, possible.
More likely the psy powers will be revamped with a casting cost, and book powers faqd to also have casting costs (or all current spell lores would be in the book). Then roll your power dice, cast away adding your mastery level, and see if your opponent dispels with his. USRs are notoriously easy to change in a new edition or update, as we saw from 3 to 3.5 and 3.5 to 4.
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Post by Russell on May 7, 2014 22:58:47 GMT -6
Why would they not go full fantasy and give everything a casting cost? With perils happening if more than one 6 is rolled? This will be great for me, since I never remember to cast anything ever.
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Post by Joelercoaster on May 8, 2014 9:05:21 GMT -6
Right you are Nick... obviously all of your dice would be Dispel Dice during the opponents turn. I mentioned the painkillers, right? Haha.
They could simply port the system over, but I'd be surprised if they did away with the Ld-based casting altogether. It's been the 40k system for so long... I think a mix would be more likely. Otherwise, how is a Farseer a better psyker than a Warlock? Adding the bonus 2 (lvl 3 vs lvl 1) is not nearly the same as testing on Ld 10 vs Ld 8.
I could see "double 6's" being the trigger for perils, still... I'm still voting for using the Ld as the base, then adding the dice (and caster level), in a winner-take-all roll-off.
It just.... seems.... right, to me. You already have the bonus for being a psyker/higher lvl psyker built in (by adding your psy lvl to the outcome). Hoods would just give surrounding units the same mastery lvl, so essentially work the same way with little-to-no change. Adamantium Will would give you a +1 to the roll, or something similar (change to the USR, but functions the same way).
Mind you, this system would be absolutely brutal against Tyranids as often as it would be brilliant. If you're in Shadows range, you basically *have* to spend an extra die for everything any time you want to get a power off. Target a Fex with a power, though? Or Gaunts? Yeah, roll Ld 10 vs Ld 6. Of course, Nids have a lot of dice to play with, typically, so... hrmmm...
Either way, I really hope that the powers get the multi-level casting that Fantasy has. Or supercharge, if you will. Granted, I fear that Catalyst could get shafted, becoming FnP on yourself for cheap, and FnP on yourself +1 other for the supercharge. That'd suck. Unless they did 3 levels of it, super-cheap just on you, moderate you +1, Super-death everything within X inches....
Best... Power... Ever...
I guess one of the biggest reasons I don't think it'll be a *complete* port of the Fantasy system is A) I don't like the complete random nature of it, and B) we already know it's not exactly the same (being dependent on your overall Warp Charge level).
So I guess you said that was the last version? I like that a lot better, personally. I don't mind the d6 in there, so long as I can say "yeah, I'll bring a lot of psykers and still have an advantage".
Grabbin' Peelz...
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Post by Nick P on May 8, 2014 9:58:29 GMT -6
A farseer is better than a warlock the same way a level 3 wizard is better than a level 1 - not only can it case more spells per turn, but when the casting cost of a spell is a 9, suddenly you only need to throw 2 dice instead of 3 to cast it. Its the same strategy as in fantasy.
Also not every fantasy spell has a super charge - mainly just magic missiles and the like. Augments and Hexes typically don't unless its a "+/- 1 to either WS/BS/I or to all 3 of them" type thing.
Most of your points refer directly to how the Fantasy magic system works haha so I feel like I just want to sit down and show you that system, so you can wrap your head around the potential changes to the psychic phase haha
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Post by Joelercoaster on May 8, 2014 10:16:13 GMT -6
I've seen enough fantasy games to have a general idea of how it works... and I didn't think about the "how many spells you cast" part of the mastery level. And yeah, if there's a Cost to spells now, then the set mastery level does influence how hard it is...
Dangit, I want a leak. Now.
Does Fantasy have a problem of getting all powers off in a turn? Let's say Tyranids again, the 3 Psykers, that's 5 powers, and say 9 dice (rolled a 4). So that's just for casting... if you switch to a Cost system (rather than warp charge) then you get 2 dice for the 3 basic powers, and then 3 for the used-to-be-2-WC power.
Sudden thought of sadness - players putting all of their dice into dispelling Dominion, causing the fatal flaw of the army to be automatically exploitable.
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Post by Matt W. on May 8, 2014 11:02:50 GMT -6
Fantasy absolutely has that problem. And vital spells being blocked are also a huge issue for some armies in fantasy.
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Post by Nick P on May 8, 2014 11:36:11 GMT -6
Yup, as Matt said. Its a huge part of the added strategy in the game - you don't just get all your spells every turn, you have to work for them and make them count when they do go through; I love it.
In fantasy you get 2D6, so an average of 7 dice per turn. Spread across, on average, 3 wizards, and about 6-8 spells (a lvl 4 and 2 lvl 1-2 scroll caddies). So its roughly the same scale that we're talking about here, in terms of amount of spells that are available and what can reliably get utilized.
The strategy comes into play in terms of what you know you need to get off, and what you think your opponent will not want to go off. So in your example of wanting to get dominion, you have two options:
1) save it till the end, when you know you'll get it off because you've sucked out all of your opponents dice by using things like psychic scream, warp blast, etc (opponents tend to view the damage dealing spells as "MUST GET RID OF" even if the overall flow of the game might dictate otherwise)
2) make sure you have other spells that your opponent is afraid of, so that he doesn't waste his dice on something as trivial as 6" synapse range (who cares - I don't want my landraider to be 'sploded by warp blast!)
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Post by Nick P on May 8, 2014 11:39:53 GMT -6
And if your opponent just put all his dice into dominion going bye bye, then dude, you just won the psychic phase - cast anything else you want and watch as your opponent can't do dick to stop it lol that's the best feeling in fantasy - I often try to cast a super big spell right off the bat so my opponent has no choice but to throw a bunch of dice or else watch his units go the way of the dinosaur; if he lets it go thinking i have something else up my sleeve, then sweet - and if he throws all his dice, then I'm golden for every other spell I have in my arsenal. Win win.
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2014 13:23:21 GMT -6
Just saw something from the WD that mentions that spacemarine and tau are desperate allies, here's to hoping taudar isn't a thing anymore.
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