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Post by Matt W. on May 22, 2014 12:57:01 GMT -6
But if the new declaration is the same as the old declaration it causes no change in status. More to the point my interpretation removes the situation where you think you can't charge so it ends up being the simplest solution.
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Post by Nick P on May 22, 2014 13:01:50 GMT -6
*EDIT*
This is idiocy until we see the book in full; the screen cap I'm referencing could very well have been a reference paragraph, and the actual description of the rule could lend much clarity to the situation.
Regardless, playing it either way really doesn't effect anything; just have to be more careful with your placement of FMCs if they truly can't charge after switching from Swoop to Glide. And if it plays the way I believe it is intended, then there will have been no change to the rules for 6th edition, and everyone should be just fine facing it.
Since the trend from Kirby's review of the book has been that nothing has changed except for vehicle scoring, psychic phase, and new missions/warlord traits, I would expect that FMCs being able to charge in the turn they switch to gliding would also remain the same. Seems finicky of GW to choose that specific rule to change, while leaving everything else sweepingly the same.
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2014 13:05:56 GMT -6
But since each turn is in a vacuum, the flight mode from turn to turn wouldn't apply? The simplest solution is "i declare swoop first turn. 2nd turn i declare glide. Since I have been gliding all turn, and all turn my flight mode hasn't changed, I now can assault despite swooping last turn" That is how I've interpreted it. It also would have the sub clause of "if you get grounded from swooping" no charging.
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2014 14:51:29 GMT -6
Attn Tyranid Players: I wake of seeing the overwhelming table flip by most Tyranid players on various forums, I've ran some numbers on the viability of FMCs. Even if the change to swooping/gliding requires an extra turn to charge after changing modes, I think it is a fair balance because of the change to grounding.
% Chance of Guardsman w/ Lasgun to Ground Target (T6) in 6th edition: 6% % Chance of Marine w/ Bolter to Ground Target (T6) in 6th edition: 6% % Chance of Marine w/ Plasmagun to Ground Target (T6) in 6th edition: 6% % Chance of Marine w/ Meltagun to Ground Target (T6) in 6th edition: 6% % Chance of Marine w/ Lascannon to Ground Target (T6) in 6th edition: 6% % Chance of Marine w/ Rocket Launcher (Krak) to Ground Target (T6) in 6th edition: 6% % Chance of Firewarrior w/ Plasma Rifle to Ground Target (T6) in 6th edition: 6% % Chance of Quad Gun (BS 2) to Ground Target (T6) in 6th edition: 19% % Chance of Quad Gun (BS 5) to Ground Target (T6) in 6th edition: 33%
% Chance of Guardsman w/ Lasgun to Ground Target (T6) in 7th edition: impossible % Chance of Marine w/ Bolter to Ground Target (T6) in 7th edition: 1% % Chance of Marine w/ Plasmagun to Ground Target (T6) in 7th edition: 4% % Chance of Marine w/ Meltagun to Ground Target (T6) in 7th edition: 5% % Chance of Marine w/ Lascannon to Ground Target (T6) in 7th edition: 5% % Chance of Marine w/ Rocket Launcher (Krak) to Ground Target (T6) in 7th edition: 5% % Chance of Firewarrior w/ Plasma Rifle to Ground Target (T6) in 7th edition: 2% % Chance of Quad Gun (BS 2) to Ground Target (T6) in 7th edition: 12% % Chance of Quad Gun (BS 5) to Ground Target (T6) in 7th edition: 22%
If the judgement from the BRB is that FMCs must choose to largely to remain gliding in order to charge quickly, I think that may very well be a solid balance decision. Their is a very small chance, unless your Tau, that you can knock FMCs out of the sky without dedicated AA guns. With that in mind, a CC monster like the Tyrant being capable of Castle Crashing on Turn 2 would be quite problematic.
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Post by Nick P on May 22, 2014 15:18:21 GMT -6
The tyrant can already castle crash on turn 2...and its less than stellar. Tyrants are typically dead by turn 3, thanks to AP3 weapons and no invuln.
The only reason to charge a FMC is to take on armor with smash - but smash got worse, and vehicles got better, so also making it more difficult for us to charge is, once again, just a seemingly unnecessary step. Its like when they decide Tyranid Primes were too cheap for what they did - they could have just raised their price, or made them worse, but instead they did both...for a reason that is anybody's guess.
I'm not too concerned, I think my tyrants and crones will be just fine flying around and shooting people, but still...the ability to reliably take out Riptides/Wraithknights and AV12+vehicles was a key option to have on hand when you needed it.
EDIT: Also will, no one is worried about being grounded by bolters or firewarriors or BS2 quad guns...we're worried about being grounded by krak missiles, lascannons, plasma, and manned quad-guns. Its awesome that we won't have to worry about being taken down my flashlights and actual flashlights (markerlights...looking at you...), but killing MCs was never the unsolvable puzzle the internet makes it seem lol
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2014 16:36:53 GMT -6
Riptides/Wraithknights and AV12+vehicles I feel most armies, I know this is true for CSM, struggle with those.
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Post by Joelercoaster on May 23, 2014 6:47:15 GMT -6
Tyranids' only answer to these is A) swarm with gaunts until game ends or B) throw a nasty MC at it. B no longer works.
As for the grounding stats, riddle me this - what's the chance that my devourer can ground your flyer?
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2014 7:04:15 GMT -6
Tyranids' only answer to these is A) swarm with gaunts until game ends or B) throw a nasty MC at it. B no longer works. As for the grounding stats, riddle me this - what's the chance that my devourer can ground your flyer? % Chance of TL Devourer Flyrant to Ground Target FMC in 6th edition: 30% % Chance of TL Devourer Flyrant to Ground Target FMC (T6) in 7th edition: 15% % Chance of TL Devourer Flyrant to Glance AV10 in 7th edition: 15% % Chance of TL Devourer Flyrant to Pen AV10 in 7th edition: 30% % Chance of TL Devourer Flyrant to Glance AV11 in 7th edition: 15% % Chance of TL Devourer Flyrant to Pen AV11 in 7th edition: 15% % Chance of TL Devourer Flyrant to Pen AV12 in 7th edition: 15% *I Can run the numbers on gaunts, I just don't know the stats of the top of my head.
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Post by Joelercoaster on May 23, 2014 7:15:20 GMT -6
Haha, my snark does not translate well. Flyers, not FMC's. Hint, the answer is 0%.
Plus side, Smash is basically a useless rule on MC's, so why should I get into combat anyway? To all mighty heroes of the Imperium, take all of the Dreadnaughts. They can charge into a Hive Tyrant and laugh. GK Dreadknights? Why waste dice using force weapons? Just roll with S10 AP2 mass hits. Because, you know, you're *not* Tyranids.
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Post by Nick P on May 23, 2014 7:19:44 GMT -6
Gaunts are S4 with devourers, so we can't do anything but glance AV10:
3 shots, hitting on sixes: 50% chance to have 1 hit S4 glancing AV10: 16% chance per hit Overall odds: 8% to do 1 hull point per termagant
So a unit of termagants with 15 devourers should reliably pull 3.6 hull points per turn off AV10 flyers.
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Post by Nick P on May 23, 2014 7:23:36 GMT -6
Joel, we still have Carnifexes, which have fleet with adrenal glands and are S9 Ap2 - and they're cheap as chips this edition, so field godzilla all day.
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Post by Dan K on May 23, 2014 19:41:00 GMT -6
BOOK IN HAND!! Smash: All attacks except for Hammer of Wrath are ap2. The model can make a SINGLE smash attack at 2x str. Post any questions you have and feel free to call me!
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Post by Russell on May 23, 2014 19:52:54 GMT -6
7th edition: Legitimate reworking of the rules or a cheap cash in?
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Post by Dan K on May 23, 2014 19:56:10 GMT -6
Cheap cash in saddly. But the cards and get a pdf
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Post by Dan K on May 23, 2014 20:02:09 GMT -6
This could have easily been done as a 10-15 page amendment to 6th ed. The art and history books are very nice. The rulebook itself is well done. I would value this set around 40-50. There is a very nice appendix, new terrain features, the new physic phase, changes to charging through terrain, (more to come)
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