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Post by Joelercoaster on May 22, 2014 8:05:32 GMT -6
A'ight...
So Kirby has his hands on a rulebook, and has been doing an FAQ on and off since then. I could stomach about 15 minutes before coming here to vomit the results...
This is all a caveat based on him reading, and then conveying, the rules correctly...
The vast majority of USR's unchanged. Interceptor no longer allows Skyfire to hit ground targets. Jink is a 4+ base, declared before you get hit, causes Snapfires in next turn.
FMC's can not charge the turn they go into glide mode. Apparently they *can* charge if you were grounded in the opponent's turn, however. Smash goes down to 1 attack, rather than half your base. Vector Strike is AP2, but only 1 random hit, D3 vs Flyers and FMC's (did not denote if they had to be moving fast or not). Move Through Cover ignores the -2" charge penalty, but does *not* ignore the initiative penalty.
Battle Bro's can join units/transports, so add a Farseer to your Archon (although casting powers while embarked is limited at best)
Vehicle damage is shifted one to the right, with one more shaken result. Flyers that get Immob'd may crash immediately (1-2 on a d6) or just be stunned.
There's still a lot more that could fill in the gaps, but, again, seems the vast majority is the same. I fear the return of "oh I tank shock every objective" is back, except with Objective Secured transports and Drop Pods. Here's hoping there's still some caveat in the back about vehicles not being amazeballs at controlling the board.
While MTC giving full assault does bode well for things like Hormagaunts and even combat Warriors, Init 1 is still a big limiting factor for Nids. Between the nerfs to Smash and FMC's getting into assault... not only was that *basically* how Nids dealt with heavy armor, but one of our few remaining real assault threats.
I really, really, really, really hope I'm wrong... but I think assault for Nids may have just gotten even worse.
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Post by Matt W. on May 22, 2014 8:29:36 GMT -6
I for one welcome our new treaded overlords and would like to remind you that all our backfield objectives belong to us.
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Post by Nick P on May 22, 2014 8:32:27 GMT -6
FMC's can not charge the turn they go into glide mode. Apparently they *can* charge if you were grounded in the opponent's turn, however. So I actually saw a screen shot of this page - and here's how its worded verbatim: "If a FMC changes flight modes during its turn, it cannot declare a charge in the same turn." I read that to mean that, if your FMC gets grounded thanks to perils or an objective exploding (on your own turn), or some other similar circumstance, that you cannot then declare a charge that turn. Since you change flight modes at the start of the turn, I think you can still charge with them on the turn you declare you're gliding. This would prevent people from being cheeky and fliying 24", just to 6 dice a spell on purpose, crash to the ground, and declare a charge. Since that part of the page is literally only 2 sentences long, this is going to be a huge point of contention between Nids/Demons and everyone else on how this is interpreted. Damnit GW, not even released yet and already needs FAQ.
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Post by Joelercoaster on May 22, 2014 8:58:21 GMT -6
Hmmm... you do have an interesting point... although I guess that boils down to the "what does "change" mean" idea... linguistics.
I guess it depends if there's a difference between "changing" and "declaring"... as in, at the beginning you Declare your move to be one or the other, and if it gets changed via Grounding on your turn, then you're right. But if you *change* it to be Gliding on your turn, then.. yeah... change... awkward.
Sigh. We'll see. All it means is Flyers stay in the air, or are *very* careful about landing out of LoS and then pouncing the next turn. Most of our flyers prefer to shoot. Welcome to the new Nids, where shooting is the new assault.
Edit - The real annoying thing is the idea of a Storm Raven dropping down to hover mode, unloading passengers, and them assaulting because it's an assault vehicle. Cool bro, tanks can do everything that MC's can't, and the stuff MC's can do gets nerfed to crap. Awesome.
Sigh. Nerd Rage.
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Post by Nick P on May 22, 2014 9:05:47 GMT -6
Yeah and I mean, its easy enough to start on the board "gliding", decide if you have any available options on this or next turn to assault, and if not take off swooping. Crones and harpies want to stay swooping, only brought into combat if absolutely necessary. Hive Tyrants are content to shoot things down, but are also superb in a fight...so will take some more thinking than current, depending on how that stupid sentence is interpreted.
*EDIT* and for the record, the wording from the rule book is in fact "declare" at the beginning of the turn, and if it "changes" during your turn then you can't assault...so I think my interpretation has merit
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Post by Joelercoaster on May 22, 2014 9:34:45 GMT -6
Hmmmm good point... although the new wording could change as well... gah. Effin' weird rules.
Still, the changes to Smash really limit what a Tyrant can do in combat. No more gimping characters, can hardly touch tanks... seriously, Nids ability to deal with armor went from "viable in CC" to a joke. Must... not... rage...
At least hormagaunts can charge now? I guess?
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Post by Matt W. on May 22, 2014 10:24:23 GMT -6
Let us not play the semantics game. If we do then I'll just have to kick everyone's ass.
Never the less take that a little deeper. If the wording of the rule is; "If a FMC changes flight modes during its turn, it cannot declare a charge in the same turn." Then the meaning and impact of declaration is not relevant to whether or not the FMC can declare a charge. It cannot. Declaring that you are swooping or gliding is one of two ways to change the state of the FMC. Since the declaration is an action which necessitates a change of state, albeit a voluntary one (as opposed to involuntary as in the case of grounding tests.) then the word declaration is more important to understanding the choice of the player. But whether or not the player choses to change the state of the FMC or finds the change forced upon them by circumstance the FMC still cannot declare a charge on the turn it changes state.
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Post by Joelercoaster on May 22, 2014 11:00:49 GMT -6
So I actually saw a screen shot of this page - and here's how its worded verbatim: "If a FMC changes flight modes during its turn, it cannot declare a charge in the same turn." So I can't type outside of this quote bubble, so I guess I"m just speaking for you now. I also saw the clip, and I'm wondering if that's the full page or just a reference bit? It's possible that the "real rule" is more detailed. I totally get what you mean, in that it could be meaning a change from what you declared at the start of the turn, etc etc (disallowing janky super-move-then-charge stuff). I'm pretty sure the design team just hates Nids, though. Hmmmmmm.....
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Post by Russell on May 22, 2014 11:18:48 GMT -6
I can't tell if you guys are joking right now. Well done.
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Post by Matt W. on May 22, 2014 11:24:38 GMT -6
What the FMC should get to do is an airborne charge with impact hits. That would be far cooler. And horribly horribly unbalanced, but cool.
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Post by Nick P on May 22, 2014 11:49:07 GMT -6
Let us not play the semantics game. If we do then I'll just have to kick everyone's ass. Never the less take that a little deeper. If the wording of the rule is; "If a FMC changes flight modes during its turn, it cannot declare a charge in the same turn." Then the meaning and impact of declaration is not relevant to whether or not the FMC can declare a charge. It cannot. Declaring that you are swooping or gliding is one of two ways to change the state of the FMC. Since the declaration is an action which necessitates a change of state, albeit a voluntary one (as opposed to involuntary as in the case of grounding tests.) then the word declaration is more important to understanding the choice of the player. But whether or not the player choses to change the state of the FMC or finds the change forced upon them by circumstance the FMC still cannot declare a charge on the turn it changes state. See, but its isn't a voluntary change of state on the part of the player. FMCs have 3 states - default, swooping, or gliding. At the start of every turn, the FMC automatically returns to its default state, and the player is forced to choose a flight mode: "At the start of every turn, a FMC must declare its flight mode" Which is where I make the distinction. Under the strict letter of the rule, you're declaring a flight mode every turn and changing flight mode from default to either swooping or gliding. Therefore, no FMCs are ever allowed to declare charges. Rather, declaring flight mode is not the same thing as changing flight mode, since flight mode changes from Swooping or Gliding to default automatically at the end of every turn. It is simply a step in the process of moving a FMC, and only FMCs that are forced to change flight mode after declaring flight mode are incapable of declaring assault. I feel like we need a lawyer lol CJ, Dan K, come quick! For the record, no I'm not going to be the guy who incessantly claims my tyrants can charge, since the rule is contested at best. I'll just never swoop, which seems to suit me just fine lol
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Post by Matt W. on May 22, 2014 12:06:11 GMT -6
Let us not play the semantics game. If we do then I'll just have to kick everyone's ass. Never the less take that a little deeper. If the wording of the rule is; "If a FMC changes flight modes during its turn, it cannot declare a charge in the same turn." Then the meaning and impact of declaration is not relevant to whether or not the FMC can declare a charge. It cannot. Declaring that you are swooping or gliding is one of two ways to change the state of the FMC. Since the declaration is an action which necessitates a change of state, albeit a voluntary one (as opposed to involuntary as in the case of grounding tests.) then the word declaration is more important to understanding the choice of the player. But whether or not the player choses to change the state of the FMC or finds the change forced upon them by circumstance the FMC still cannot declare a charge on the turn it changes state. See, but its isn't a voluntary change of state on the part of the player. FMCs have 3 states - default, swooping, or gliding. At the start of every turn, the FMC automatically returns to its default state, and the player is forced to choose a flight mode: "At the start of every turn, a FMC must declare its flight mode" Which is where I make the distinction. Under the strict letter of the rule, you're declaring a flight mode every turn and changing flight mode from default to either swooping or gliding. Therefore, no FMCs are ever allowed to declare charges. Rather, declaring flight mode is not the same thing as changing flight mode, since flight mode changes from Swooping or Gliding to default automatically at the end of every turn. It is simply a step in the process of moving a FMC, and only FMCs that are forced to change flight mode after declaring flight mode are incapable of declaring assault. I feel like we need a lawyer lol CJ, Dan K, come quick! For the record, no I'm not going to be the guy who incessantly claims my tyrants can charge, since the rule is contested at best. I'll just never swoop, which seems to suit me just fine lol This would be a viable argument except for the fact that in the FMC rules from the 6th edition rulebook (We have no other options but to continue to consult it for a few days.) states that you choose whether you are gliding or swooping. So for example. If you glide on one turn and choose to glide on another you have glided for two consecutive turns and no change of state has occurred and you could charge to your hearts content. However if you Glide one turn and then swoop the next than a change of state has occurred and therefore you could not charge.
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Post by Matt W. on May 22, 2014 12:11:30 GMT -6
Court adjourned. Bring in the dancing Lobsters.
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2014 12:34:48 GMT -6
Apparently vehicle can score now, and dedicated troop transports get objective secured. If a vehicle is immobilized, it still scores until destroyed. Looks like my sisters got a pretty hefty buff.
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Post by Nick P on May 22, 2014 12:40:10 GMT -6
Except that you still have to make the decision every turn and declare it to your opponent. Whether I choose to glide or swoop in consecutive turns is of no consequence; I must declare it anew each and every turn. Each turn is a closed system.
In your example, you declare flight mode at the very beginning of your turn. So for that turn, you have only had a single flight mode. You have not changed flight modes during that turn. You can choose a new flight mode next turn, and the same result applies - for that turn, you have had but a single flight mode, and it has not changed.
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