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Post by Eric formerly Eric on Feb 10, 2017 22:18:34 GMT -6
So I'm not sure if anyone mentioned this but this means that harlequins have actual HQ choices! You can use a cad like normal people
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Post by Nick P on Feb 11, 2017 13:37:05 GMT -6
I'm not sure that'll help them unfortunately. Harlies are tough to play well man
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Post by Eric formerly Eric on Feb 11, 2017 13:43:35 GMT -6
I'm not sure that'll help them unfortunately. Harlies are tough to play well man Yeah I looked into them a while back. I think they're just over costed a bit. GW really overvalued weak invulns. But I still think they are good once they get in close. You just have to take advantage of cover and also use the named death jester who has shrouded. I feel like the new characters can tank lots of hits for them too.
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Post by Nick P on Feb 11, 2017 13:53:34 GMT -6
Ive been mathhammering it and honestly the characters aren't that survivable. Granted they gain back wounds if you don't kill them outright, but 3 wounds on t3 isn't hard to cause. Where Celestine has 4 ablative wounds that automatically regen, these guys only have 3 total and only a chance to regen.
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Post by 1D3chan on Feb 11, 2017 14:37:42 GMT -6
Yeah, the Triumverate is surprisingly not overpowered at all. Actually quite fluffy and well costed. Like the Avatar has the same stat line as the old Avatar (of Khaine) for 100 more points. His only real difference being, like Nick said, he has a good chance to regenerate...if a lot of your stuff starts to die.
Harlequins suffer from this in my opinion: any army that is built around winning in combat / having the edge in the assault phase, that do not have access to Biomancy, FnP, low Ap Weapons or mass bodies, really can't hang in most meta's. It's the same reason all Eldar CC units are sub-par. They cannot defeat dedicated CC units from other codices with proper toughness, psychic support and AP value (rending or otherwise).
The exception being the GSC that circumvents all of those things by being able to assault whatever units they choose, when they choose, without having to worry about the enemy shooting phase.
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mike
Butts
Posts: 628
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Post by mike on Feb 11, 2017 15:11:07 GMT -6
I can't stop calling the Yncarne the con carne.
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Post by Joelercoaster on Feb 11, 2017 18:08:50 GMT -6
I can't stop calling the Yncarne the con carne. Why would you even try? In other news... A couple of questions, as I am intrigued by this but not quite sure how a couple of things would work out. - step one - I'm a little confused by the wording of the initiative order when using Soulburst to assault. It almost seems to me that you jump into the combat at the current initiative step, and continue from there (so, say some terminators finished off a unit at I1, and your nearby wyches then get to charge, it's initiative step one and then combat is over). Basically, I see nothing that resets initiative for the charging unit, to allow them to actually attack that round (granted, wyches would much rather be in the thick of it than waiting through the enemy shooting phase, so there is still tactical advantage to this). Maybe I'm just going cross-eyed from too much coding, but does anyone read this differently? - step two - if a unit is in a vehicle, afaik with the new current FAQ's it's effectively off the table... meaning kabalites in raiders/venoms couldn't claim Soulburst (and therefor shoot twice)? Is this accurate? Honestly I'm not sure where the latest FAQ's drew the lines on some of these things. Raider gun-boats with splinter racks actually put out decent damage up close, and soulburst would really do wonders to increase that, but if the unit can't get the Soulburst rule off, then that kind of takes that away as an idea xD
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Post by 1D3chan on Feb 11, 2017 19:05:05 GMT -6
I can't stop calling the Yncarne the con carne. Why would you even try? In other news... A couple of questions, as I am intrigued by this but not quite sure how a couple of things would work out. - step one - I'm a little confused by the wording of the initiative order when using Soulburst to assault. It almost seems to me that you jump into the combat at the current initiative step, and continue from there (so, say some terminators finished off a unit at I1, and your nearby wyches then get to charge, it's initiative step one and then combat is over). Basically, I see nothing that resets initiative for the charging unit, to allow them to actually attack that round (granted, wyches would much rather be in the thick of it than waiting through the enemy shooting phase, so there is still tactical advantage to this). Maybe I'm just going cross-eyed from too much coding, but does anyone read this differently? - step two - if a unit is in a vehicle, afaik with the new current FAQ's it's effectively off the table... meaning kabalites in raiders/venoms couldn't claim Soulburst (and therefor shoot twice)? Is this accurate? Honestly I'm not sure where the latest FAQ's drew the lines on some of these things. Raider gun-boats with splinter racks actually put out decent damage up close, and soulburst would really do wonders to increase that, but if the unit can't get the Soulburst rule off, then that kind of takes that away as an idea xD You're exactly right about the Soulburst Assault mechanics. It prevents an "infinite chain" of assaults and kills, or in other words, the Sweeping Advance mechanic of 3-4th edition. Nothing resets initiative. It's most valuable on high initiative units, which luckily the Aeldari have, but comes to a stop relatively quickly. So for example, if a unit of Reaver Jetbikes crashes into a small squad of guardsmen and rips them to shreds with the Hammer of Wrath hits alone, they can then charge another unit but only do their normal attacks - they don't get their HoW I10 attacks again. It's also beneficial to a squad where some of their attacks are at initiative, and some are unwieldy/stomps/I1. But like you said, the other tactical advantage is just simply tying up a new unit and not being shot at. I am 90% sure you're right about the second part as well.
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Post by Joelercoaster on Feb 11, 2017 19:07:59 GMT -6
Sweet, I've really been itching to play footdardar (that's foot dark eldar, for you savages) without FnP xD
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mike
Butts
Posts: 628
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Post by mike on Feb 12, 2017 10:26:31 GMT -6
The con carne is what happens when you spill your mountain dew Baja blast at taco bell.
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Post by Nick P on Feb 12, 2017 11:21:46 GMT -6
Why would you even try? In other news... A couple of questions, as I am intrigued by this but not quite sure how a couple of things would work out. - step one - I'm a little confused by the wording of the initiative order when using Soulburst to assault. It almost seems to me that you jump into the combat at the current initiative step, and continue from there (so, say some terminators finished off a unit at I1, and your nearby wyches then get to charge, it's initiative step one and then combat is over). Basically, I see nothing that resets initiative for the charging unit, to allow them to actually attack that round (granted, wyches would much rather be in the thick of it than waiting through the enemy shooting phase, so there is still tactical advantage to this). Maybe I'm just going cross-eyed from too much coding, but does anyone read this differently? - step two - if a unit is in a vehicle, afaik with the new current FAQ's it's effectively off the table... meaning kabalites in raiders/venoms couldn't claim Soulburst (and therefor shoot twice)? Is this accurate? Honestly I'm not sure where the latest FAQ's drew the lines on some of these things. Raider gun-boats with splinter racks actually put out decent damage up close, and soulburst would really do wonders to increase that, but if the unit can't get the Soulburst rule off, then that kind of takes that away as an idea xD You're exactly right about the Soulburst Assault mechanics. It prevents an "infinite chain" of assaults and kills, or in other words, the Sweeping Advance mechanic of 3-4th edition. Nothing resets initiative. It's most valuable on high initiative units, which luckily the Aeldari have, but comes to a stop relatively quickly. So for example, if a unit of Reaver Jetbikes crashes into a small squad of guardsmen and rips them to shreds with the Hammer of Wrath hits alone, they can then charge another unit but only do their normal attacks - they don't get their HoW I10 attacks again. It's also beneficial to a squad where some of their attacks are at initiative, and some are unwieldy/stomps/I1. But like you said, the other tactical advantage is just simply tying up a new unit and not being shot at. I am 90% sure you're right about the second part as well. Well actually, each combat is separate - otherwise you'd fight all of your I6 models across the table before moving to I5 etc. But its only localized to each individual combat. So, if you have a multi combat with several units involved and one of them dies at I4 and you charge in more incubi to swing the combat, those incubi don't get to fight. But if that unit dies at I4 and you charge the incubi into another combat that hadn't been fought yet - or a new combat in general - they still get to fight. Technically, RaW, a unit can charge in, kill a unit outright, then soul burst into a new combat and fight again. But then its done since you can't soulburst more than once a turn.
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Post by Joelercoaster on Feb 12, 2017 11:40:40 GMT -6
So if you're instigating a combat you're all good to swing, but joining an existing combat is harder (sometimes).
It seems order of operations is just really important here. Since you go one-by-one, any combat that hasn't started will default to starting at I10 (so if you run into a new combat, or into an existing one that hasn't been 'activated' yet, you're fine). If a unit gets finished off at a low initiative (or even the avg Eldar I of 5), and you bumrush another unit in to join, then that unit probably won't get to swing.
All told if that's right, it leaves you with a number of options. Incubi could be a good candidate for this, as they're more reliably going to be able to cut down squads on the charge (it's actually been a problem for them - killing everything in one round and then being stuck in the open), and Banshees will feel similarly (and enjoy not getting overwatched, ever). Wyches? I worry that the inherent problems they have will still hold true. Not a lot of oomph in the squad, susceptible to overwatch, etc. Reavers though? Reavers will also enjoy this (although I've always had trouble getting them to hit combat in the first place... it's not that hard to kill 6 marines if you really want to).
Honestly mostly bummed that kabalites (probably) can't soulburst-shoot from transports. DS'ing scourges might be able to drop two vehicles in one round, though, which is certainly something.
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Post by Nick P on Feb 12, 2017 12:51:36 GMT -6
But played well this army is going to be tons of fun.
Imagine a unit of reavers with heat lances and caltrops charging into a unit. They kill that unit, then soul burst themselves to shoot at a transport. They pop the transport, so another unit gets to soulburst into combat with the contents of that transport. They kill that unit, so another unit soulburst shoots at another transport...etc.
It will very likely never work out that way but its absolutely a possibility.
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Post by Joelercoaster on Feb 12, 2017 16:53:18 GMT -6
I'll say this - the idea of soulburst-chaining is really cool. I'm probably down to at least try a list with it sometime, just to try something new.
I will also say that I expect relatively few DE units to really benefit from this. The units that like it will *really* like it (Reavers, Incubi, potentially Scourges) but we're still left with our bulk options (aka troops) that can't benefit from it while embarked, and lose FnP on the ground (which is pretty huge on a T3 5+ body).
It kind of boils down to the best way to make DE good, is to simply take CW:E instead of a lot of our other units, and that leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
I guess an 'Incubi Shrine' list with (go figure) lots of large incubi squads, banshees as 'trainees', and maybe DA's as 'initiates' (or whatever term you think is appropriate) could be interesting to see. I dunno. Keep me posted on how games turn out.
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Post by mcsardo on Feb 12, 2017 17:43:38 GMT -6
But played well this army is going to be tons of fun. Imagine a unit of reavers with heat lances and caltrops charging into a unit. They kill that unit, then soul burst themselves to shoot at a transport. They pop the transport, so another unit gets to soulburst into combat with the contents of that transport. They kill that unit, so another unit soulburst shoots at another transport...etc. It will very likely never work out that way but its absolutely a possibility. You can't do an infinite chain though; it says you only get one soulburst action per unit per turn.
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