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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2016 12:38:02 GMT -6
I have been running them with jump pack and a pair of lightning claws on all five. I also run them in the Shadowstrike Kill Team, which lets them deep strike without scatter and charge on turn 1. That said however, I have had an abysmal track record. To date they have consistently died in combat without killing much of anything. I'm think I need to maybe move them from an Anti-Infantry role to an Anti-MC/Tank. I consistently have trouble with MCs and Super Heavies with my current list overall, maybe this is the solution. I was looking at running them with the following load out: *Any thoughts on whether this would be a useful unit?
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Post by theknightmantis on Apr 14, 2016 13:06:20 GMT -6
Drop those axes in favor of Relic Blades or Power Mauls.
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Post by theknightmantis on Apr 14, 2016 13:08:53 GMT -6
Vanguard vets are just not great at killing MCs in my experience.
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Post by rogerspacem on Apr 14, 2016 13:15:21 GMT -6
1) How much is the whole point cost for this unit? (sorry still unfamiliar with all my space marines friends :-D ) Which brings up to question, what is the point limit for your substitution? 2) For the ShadowStrike Kill Team, just to clarify it allows you to automatically deep strike or do you roll? 3) As to question the rolls of dice, yeah man the dice gods can be mean, cause your veterans get, what A2 base + 1 charge + 1 two weapon fighting = A4. So 20 attacks, hitting on 4's (depending) so statically 10. You got shred on those bad boys so roughly 75% percent of those guys "should" wound. Meaning 7 dead models (or go with orks since that was an example.) Not sure how that happens to you...just as much as I wonder why plasma will usually blow up on me way more often than should. 4) But to answer your question: I think it is a strong and thought out unit. I am assuming you are using bolt pistols and chain swords on the guys with just melta bombs. You got three guys that can chop down monstrous creatures (maybe not out right killing some, but enough to do damage,) and couple of meltas two tear down any vehicle or MC. This I will say is quite effective against vehicles (not sure about walkers, but strong against them never the less.) I will ponder it more, but I think this is a much better unit than the lightning claws. You can easily take down more valuable targets pretty easily. If anything why not add one more melta bomb?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2016 13:18:22 GMT -6
Drop those axes in favor of Relic Blades or Power Mauls. You can only take the relic blade on the Sergeant, and its 15pts as opposed to the 5pts for a power weapon. I have considered the maul, but its really only useful against light vehicles in my list. I bring a ton of ignores cover bolters so I've never had trouble with 4+ armor. Vanguard vets are just not great at killing MCs in my experience. Honestly it seems like everything in the marine codex sans Gravguns are terrible against MCs, and grav isn't very good on anything but drop pod squads or bikes. Thus my anti-MC conundrum.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2016 13:22:00 GMT -6
1) How much is the whole point cost for this unit? (sorry still unfamiliar with all my space marines friends :-D ) Which brings up to question, what is the point limit for your substitution? 2) For the ShadowStrike Kill Team, just to clarify it allows you to automatically deep strike or do you roll? 3) As to question the rolls of dice, yeah man the dice gods can be mean, cause your veterans get, what A2 base + 1 charge + 1 two weapon fighting = A4. So 20 attacks, hitting on 4's (depending) so statically 10. You got shred on those bad boys so roughly 75% percent of those guys "should" wound. Meaning 7 dead models (or go with orks since that was an example.) Not sure how that happens to you...just as much as I wonder why plasma will usually blow up on me way more often than should. 4) But to answer your question: I think it is a strong and thought out unit. I am assuming you are using bolt pistols and chain swords on the guys with just melta bombs. You got three guys that can chop down monstrous creatures (maybe not out right killing some, but enough to do damage,) and couple of meltas two tear down any vehicle or MC. This I will say is quite effective against vehicles (not sure about walkers, but strong against them never the less.) I will ponder it more, but I think this is a much better unit than the lightning claws. You can easily take down more valuable targets pretty easily. If anything why not add one more melta bomb? 1.) 165pts is the squad, and I could spend upto 175pts 2.) Even better, you can choose at the start of any turn whether they come in or not. 4.) I've considered giving the sergeant a meltabomb over the axe, just so he can swing in a challenge if he gets targeted.
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Post by rogerspacem on Apr 14, 2016 13:25:45 GMT -6
Space marines are not known vs mc'S in general. I say axes are okay purely for the fact that most mc'S will end up going first anyhow... At least in my experience thus far.
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cj
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Post by cj on Apr 14, 2016 13:31:22 GMT -6
The problem is the low initiative combined with toughness 4. By using power axes you swing last, which means the monstrous creatures will eat them relatively easily with their ability to ignore armor saves and as a long time marine player, a 3+ throw will betray you time and again, so I'm not a fan of the storm shield. I think a bigger squad might help you out, and I really like power fists/hammers if you are chasing big targets. With their ability to multi charge without penalty, you might consider a big squad with swords/mauls and try to hit two or three squads on the first turn charge. If the opponent doesn't cluster, it means they are scattered and can be picked off piecemeal. With fists/hammers in a big squad, you have some ablative wounds to be picked off so the important guys can do the damage.
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Post by rogerspacem on Apr 14, 2016 13:42:02 GMT -6
Question: Have you considered Power Lances?
I know they are horribly frowned upon, but since you are most likely to get the drop on your opponent first, regardless of the situation, then are they not a liable option?
Even if you get only one on your sergeant (plus give him a melta bomb), and the other two have axes, he will at least strike at his init, have a str: 5, and retains ap3 till the first round.
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Post by Nick P on Apr 14, 2016 13:50:10 GMT -6
Power lances can only be taken on mounted units.
Personally I think the all Claws unit is fluffy and fun, and should do serious damage to rank and file infantry. If you're using them against a faster dedicated assault unit you're going to have problems though, and vs big mcs there are better options.
I say get the forgeworld dark furies and use the twin lightning claws. Just be careful who you go after, try to use a unit of 10 to multicharge turn 1 and tie down units for the rest of your army to advance unscathed.
How many grav guns can an assault squad take? Msu grav assault might be a good anti tank/Mc strategy.
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Post by Russell on Apr 14, 2016 13:53:20 GMT -6
I didn't think assault squads could take grav?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2016 13:56:12 GMT -6
Power lances can only be taken on mounted units. Personally I think the all Claws unit is fluffy and fun, and should do serious damage to rank and file infantry. If you're using them against a faster dedicated assault unit you're going to have problems though, and vs big mcs there are better options. I say get the forgeworld dark furies and use the twin lightning claws. Just be careful who you go after, try to use a unit of 10 to multicharge turn 1 and tie down units for the rest of your army to advance unscathed. How many grav guns can an assault squad take? Msu grav assault might be a good anti tank/Mc strategy. Lances are available to any Veteran/Sergeant ranked model these days regardless of mounted or on foot. That's exactly why I went lightning claws was because it fit thematically. They have just REALLY under performed vs. very weak units (I.E. Ork boys, Tau Pathfinders). A unit of 10 is absurdly expensive, clocking in at 220pts with no weapon upgrades, and the big benefit of vanguard is that they get a 10pts discount on pretty much any weapon upgrade. Assault squads cannot take gravguns. The only ways for me to get grav is on tacticals, bike squads, command squad, and devastators. On any non-bike model grav is also really limited, as the range drops to 9" if you move.
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Post by Nick P on Apr 14, 2016 15:06:40 GMT -6
Holy shit, they should kill an average of 7-8 Boyz or pathfinders on the charge lol you should have ruined those units!
I'd say trust in the law of averages, and play more games. You know they should do better than that. Maybe get new dice?
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Post by dennish on Apr 14, 2016 15:16:57 GMT -6
All this talk about assault units...pah! I just shoot all day and pick my models of the board automatically when I am engaged in CC... no hassle no schmazzle.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2016 15:19:22 GMT -6
Maybe there is a bigger question here then, what do Vanguard Veterans do best?
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