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Post by Nick P on Apr 14, 2016 15:32:54 GMT -6
At s4 t4 i4, but 4 attacks on the charge, at ap3 (assuming power weapons/lcs), they are great at dealing with rank and file infantry units, meqs or worse.
They don't want to be bogged down by blobs, since they will fail saves if required to roll a bunch, and don't want to be in combat with anything ap3 or with a ton of attacks, especially if that thing is i5 or better.
I'd use them to go after small objective holding units, or combat squad marine units, to wipe them off the board.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2016 16:01:45 GMT -6
My problem with using them that way though is the math doesn't check out in their favor. At 160-180 pts for the squad they need to kill a lot to get their point value back. 8 MEQs dead is only a little over 100pts, and that is assuming that none of the veterans died to overwatch or dangerous terrain checks. If even one vanguard dies before the charge it drops to 5-6 MEQ kills. It is also unlikely that the veterans make it out of combat without casualties of some kind. Putting them on dedicated tank hunting gives them a little more return on investment I think, just because vehicles are rarely in cover (no dangerous terrain checks), count as WS 3, don't swing back and can't fire over watch. Back field tanks also tend to cost more points. Serving double duty as Monster hunters is just for the event that my opponent has no tanks, such as Nids.
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Post by Nick P on Apr 14, 2016 16:08:53 GMT -6
Also, if you're absolutely desperate for an anti-tank, anti-MC unit, rather than spending points on axes and storm shields etc etc, just grab them all grav-pistols and melta bombs for 20 a pop. Yeah, its 45 more points than your proposed axe/shield/melta unit, but gets you consistent MC wounds at 12", counts as CCW for the extra attack if you absolutely have to charge an infantry unit, and with melta you can delete any tank you charge (especially with assault doctrines netting you rerolls to hit for a turn).
The unit is 210, has a small footprint, will deep strike where you need it to on whichever turn you want it to, and has all the cool RG rules. It will average ~2-3 wounds per round of shooting vs 3+ armor MCs (read: most of them), so can either be the icing on the cake for an already-wounded MC or put out some pain and rely on another unit to finish it off.
If you charge armor, you're getting 5 melta bombs hitting on 3s, with rerolls to hit. Should be 4 Hull Points gone on average per combat.
Assuming you pick the right targets, you should get their points back easily.
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Post by fragdady on Apr 15, 2016 10:40:19 GMT -6
5 with lightning claws, 5 with thunder hammers. All with storm shields and jump packs. Keep them out of sight of enemy fire, or if you're an alpha strike list move them forward when the enemy has other things to deal with. Once they reach the enemies line you'll wipe through unit after unit.
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Post by Nick P on Apr 15, 2016 10:41:36 GMT -6
Will you could also try using the bladewing formation, its a great MSU objective grabber late game, and might make better use of minimum sized vet/assault squads.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2016 11:50:12 GMT -6
Eh, it might just be that vanguard don't have a home in my list as it is. I own the models so I wanted to use them, but they don't seem to bring anything that I NEED to the list. I might try a command squad with gravguns in a drop pod. That ought to do something to big MCs.
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Post by theknightmantis on Apr 15, 2016 12:55:41 GMT -6
Eh, it might just be that vanguard don't have a home in my list as it is. I own the models so I wanted to use them, but they don't seem to bring anything that I NEED to the list. I might try a command squad with gravguns in a drop pod. That ought to do something to big MCs. That will do it trust me. Grav eats MCs. |
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Post by rogerspacem on Apr 15, 2016 14:07:00 GMT -6
Grav eats lots of things... aside from guard and orks
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2016 13:00:52 GMT -6
I think I've come up with a good solution to the anti-MC dilemma. I'll take a Terminator Captain in Catapharactii Armor and a Devastator Squad with two Grav-Cannons. In the Pinion Demi-Company they can outflank and ignore cover. The Captain provides them Slow and Purposefully which grants them the full 24" range and 10 shots with the Grav-Cannon. Add in the amp for re-rolls to wound and I can deal on average 7 wounds to a wraithknight in one round.
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Post by Nick P on Apr 16, 2016 16:03:20 GMT -6
Does slow and purposeful actually transfer? Obviously it prevents the unit from running/sweeping advancing, since he's in the unit, but does it suddenly mean the Marines remembered how to target accurately while walking?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2016 16:10:30 GMT -6
Does slow and purposeful actually transfer? Obviously it prevents the unit from running/sweeping advancing, since he's in the unit, but does it suddenly mean the Marines remembered how to target accurately while walking? It does actually transfer. Per the BRB " A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule cannot Run, Turbo-boost, move Flat Out, perform Sweeping Advances or fire Overwatch. However, they can shoot with Heavy, Salvo and Ordnance weapons, counting as stationary even if they moved in the previous Movement phase. They are also allowed to charge in the same turn they fire Heavy, Ordnance, Rapid Fire or Salvo weapons." it does mean that should they fail to kill the target they are almost 100% guaranteed to get charged, which is why I'm giving the Captain a Chain Fist. |
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Post by Nick P on Apr 17, 2016 7:38:05 GMT -6
That is so DOPE! Shit man, you might be on to something here.
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dex
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Post by dex on Apr 20, 2016 13:09:14 GMT -6
These guys are not going to kill MCs (other than Tau), you should be sending them after that 3 gun strong thudd gun squad or 5 meltas on the LR full of whatever is scary. Multicharge multiple back field shooting units. Stay away from TeQ and T4+
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2016 13:13:46 GMT -6
These guys are not going to kill MCs (other than Tau), you should be sending them after that 3 gun strong thudd gun squad or 5 meltas on the LR full of whatever is scary. Multicharge multiple back field shooting units. Stay away from TeQ and T4+ That is initially what I had wanted them for, grabbing soft targets in cover like Pathfinders, Devastators, ect. Maybe I should just give them another try with the lightning claws, it should work in theory. |
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dex
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Post by dex on Apr 20, 2016 13:19:19 GMT -6
Well I think that you should ask, are back field objective holders and back line heavy support choices causing me to lose games?
If so, what are my options? How many points do they cost? What else do they do?
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