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Post by Joelercoaster on Nov 10, 2014 9:05:56 GMT -6
Highlander rules do not apply to Troops, or Maleceptors.
I agree that the 200 pt limit on "units" is harsh on Nids. Build a useable Tervigon? Over 200. Decent Tyrant (even if you try a walker)? Over 200. Trygon Prime? Over 200.
I think you have good intentions with this rule, but it's hitting things that don't need to be hit, by being too broad of a restriction (I'm sure I could build a 200 point unit that would be terrible). Shoot, even a full-sized upgraded Hormagaunt brood is over that limit, and there's nothing overly frightening there.
My gut tells me you're trying to restrict heavy Deathstar units, rather than just costly ones. Perhaps a bit of refining on that front is in order? Maybe I'm just reading too much into it, though.
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Post by jefferestinpeace on Nov 10, 2014 9:07:53 GMT -6
Fair enough, let's hear some ideas to remedy the problem there dudes.
Also, if you don't think units that singularly make up half an army at that low of points level is a problem, tell me about it.
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Post by Joelercoaster on Nov 10, 2014 9:19:33 GMT -6
Well, like I said, I figured it was more of a "deathstar" problem, rather than "expensive unit" problem.
If my 500 pt list was a Tervigon (kitted), 4 rippers (tunneling), and... let's see... 30 adrenal-hormagaunts... is that going to be a problem for most people? (plus 10 spare points)
We have one MC, in lieu of any tanks (per usual), that any missiles/mass S6/even bolters can wound... a small brood of DS'ing Rippers to be a nuisance, and then 30 gaunts (that are close to being scary on the charge).
The Gaunt Blob is big, but not durable. They "guarantee" a turn 2 charge, but any deaths add inches to what they need to cross... blah blah blah. We all know how effective Hormagaunts are (which, in fairness, I think is "slightly" these days, but I use them as a cheap tie-up, not a hard killer).
In short, that's 2 units over 200, but I wouldn't look at this as an unbalanced or WAAC list. I'd actually look at it as fairly fluffy (big MC leading the charge, giant horde of gribblies, a few rippers).
Again, this is a Tyranid example... and what GW (still) needs to learn is that the rules are different for them. They do things in different ways than any other army. Hitting Smash across the board may balance 99% of things, but it utterly cripples Nids ability to deal with armor (well, I should say getting into CC with tanks was our #1 way, and always has been, but now that's just not true).
It's a different type of list, as most armies don't feature big hordes like this (basically Nids and Orks, with IG capable) so people don't realize how helpful large blasts and flamers are... but hey... learning opportunity?
I think things like no flyers until 1k may be a good idea, as trying to fit in anti-air into a 500 pt list is just stupid for some armies (unless you just assume everyone is playing 450, with a Quad-gun Aegis).
Then again, I could just be spouting nonsense.
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Post by jefferestinpeace on Nov 10, 2014 9:28:59 GMT -6
Well, a Dakkaflyrant at 500 pts will still suck for your opponent. So will a Tyrannofex. Probably even a Trygon. Not to mention InvisiStars, Land Raiders, Wraithknights, Riptides, etc. There are problem units and there are not. I'm pretty adverse to building an entire detailed comp list for 2 months of gaming, so unfortunately we're going to have to come up with a blanket solution.
No flyers is a start for sure. That sounds great.
Let's stay on task here my friends. This is going to end up being a decent amount of work for me to keep up and I'd like to not lose steam too quickly if there are some potential new gamers out there for us to piddle around with.
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Post by Joelercoaster on Nov 10, 2014 9:35:22 GMT -6
Eh, Riptides are under 200 anyway. Because Tau.
And there are probably more problem-units than not. It's just unfortunate for the non-problemers. But. Shrug. Blanket solutions are the simplest.
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Post by Dan K on Nov 10, 2014 9:38:44 GMT -6
The problem with hard line restrictions is there is ALWAYS a way around it. No matter what limits we make, no matter what limits we set, if someone wants to make a dick list they are going to. I think we just have to all agree that we won't and leave it at that. Nothing is on the line here, no money, no prizes, no 'internet points,' so lets just come together (heeheehee) and decide that we are going to have a good time with fluffy lists. Also we can just give Jeff permission to sodomize anyone who we vote on and decide is a douche. (win-win amiright?)
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Post by Dan K on Nov 10, 2014 9:39:08 GMT -6
Eh, Riptides are under 200 anyway. Because Tau. THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS
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Post by Joelercoaster on Nov 10, 2014 9:40:32 GMT -6
PS - you could say something like no non-troops with 2+ until after X points...
So that'd cut out Riptides/Tyrannos/etc at low points, but still allow you to pile on Termies if you're playing a Deathwing army or something.
Regular marines don't throw out Termies for scout patrols, after all. If you did that, and "nothing over T6 until X value" (T6 being the magic 'bolters can hurt me' number), you don't run into the mega-units that absolutely dominate small games.
I'm totes bringing two Flyrants, and two Meiotic spores as my 500 pt list. What do you guys think I should do with my spare 10 points?
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Post by Dan K on Nov 10, 2014 9:42:15 GMT -6
1/18th of a riptide
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Post by Joelercoaster on Nov 10, 2014 9:43:41 GMT -6
I agree with Dan, though. The simplest, easiest (if slightly more intensive) way to do it is to specify this is a fun, LEARNING environment. ALL LISTS must be submitted prior to use to the TO (or judge panel, as putting that all on one dude is harsh), and if it is decidedly a seal-beater, then it's veto'd. Re-write the list and try again, sir.
We can all look at a list and tell if it's going to be a problem or not, but it's hard to make cut and dry rules toward that situation without having WAY TOO MANY.
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Post by Nick P on Nov 10, 2014 9:49:03 GMT -6
You guys its also going to be a bunch of noobs who have never played before...they're not going to look at the eldar book and go "SCORE, jet-seer invisistar at 750 points, NICE"...that's just a ridiculous sentiment.
Highlander rules until 1000, no flyers until 1000, other than that? Game on. Let them build what they want and learn from the games they play, that's the whole point. If we limit the number of 200+ point units, or AV, then that guy who wants to play with a landraider because he thinks its such a cool model, suddenly can't. That guy who wants to build out a cool unit of ravenwing bikers can't. The dude who wants to try Tyranids (bless him) doesn't even get to use the tyrant, which is just the coolest model ever. And then they're jaded, and they lose interest, and they quit.
Keep it simple. Keep it light, keep it fun. Our job as veterans will be to make sure they get sucked into the game, into the lore, and to forge some mo'fucking narratives. As long as we aren't dicks in list building, the league will be successful.
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Post by jefferestinpeace on Nov 10, 2014 9:52:32 GMT -6
How about an opponent rating mechanic then? The results of which would be kept anonymous. Since it's all in the spirit of sportsmanship, a simple "Would you play this opponent/list again?" question might work, with a deduction in points. To prevent sabotage, at least two games against two different opponents with a "no" answer would result in a points deduction.
As much as I love being the bad guy, having to tell some dude I've never met that he can't play with his toys cause I don't like them doesn't sit right with me.
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Post by Nick P on Nov 10, 2014 9:52:44 GMT -6
Guys, its already a once-per-month league, which is going to see HUGE drop off from one meeting to the next. The last thing we want to do is limit and restrict the new players even more.
We're basically going to be hoping these guys play games in between meetings, facilitating it as much as we can by inviting them to games days at people's houses etc; but at the end of the day, if they don't see the game board except for once every 4 weeks, and they ALSO can't bring the cool units they want, then they're just going to go back to CoD: Advanced Kevin Spacey Edition: Battle Town 4: The Freeze: Part 2: Super Plus
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Post by jefferestinpeace on Nov 10, 2014 9:54:12 GMT -6
Yeah, Rule of Cool stands. Veteran responsibilities abound. We know where you live, etc.
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Post by jefferestinpeace on Nov 10, 2014 9:55:18 GMT -6
Thanks guys, Mike chugs dick.
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