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Post by Joelercoaster on Oct 18, 2014 8:03:48 GMT -6
So, an ever-so-slight rules conundrum.
The newfangled Shadowfield no longer cuts out on the first failed save, but rather at the end of the phase after you take a wound. Costs more, but that's a big bonus (especially when the chaff takes it down, and now the Power Fist Sgt is looking at you hungrily).
This in an of itself is pretty clear.
But of course, there's more.
Feel No Pain says, basically, that if you pass it, the wound is not suffered.
So it's (specifically) not a save, but if you didn't take a wound, you didn't take a wound.
Fluff wise, it makes perfect sense that the field would cut out, but there would still be no wound (shot gets through the Field, disabling it, but the crazy doodman is like "nah, bro").
HOWEVER.
The exact same wording conundrum is available vs FMC's and grounding (well, I can't say exact same, as my book is trapped on my friend's external HD right now).
Fluff wise here, it makes as much sense that there would be no test... as the beastie gets hit, but just don't care (throwing his wings into the air), and continues on his merry, undisturbed killing spree.
Gameplay, I think these should be consistent, as the order of operations/triggers are basically the same.
RAW, I'm tempted to say that FNP negates the wound, which in turn does not trigger the penalties (because the wound is out of the equation before the time that you would test). More than anything, though, I think that the group at large should decide on one ruling for these (and any future related) queries.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2014 16:29:27 GMT -6
Personally, from a balance side more then anything I think it should cancel the field if he fails a save regardless of FNP. Likewise, for much the same reason, I think FNP shouldn't negate grounding tests. As is, anyone attacking a archon is hitting a 2++ save, add in a 1 in 3 (often times a 1 in 2) chance of just getting it back and I think your looking at something borderline un-balancing. I mean, DE don't even pay for FNP. FMCs are likewise very hard to hurt now, having to wound them really shut down small arms being able to do much of anything against them. Allowing the FNP granted by their powers to potentially ignore grounding makes it so anything but pure luck, or a heavy amount of AA, are just going to fail to do much of anything. Also, ust because the beetle doesn't feel the hole in his wing doesn't mean its not there.
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Post by Nick P on Oct 18, 2014 17:16:58 GMT -6
It makes sense for FMCs, since feel no pain prevents a wound and you only test grounding if you suffer a wound, but I don't think it works this way for the shadow field, or at least isn't the intention.
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Post by Joelercoaster on Oct 18, 2014 17:56:12 GMT -6
I get what you mean, Nick, but as it stands, it's the same rule that affects two different things, so despite some potential fluff inconsistencies, both *should* be handled in the same manner.
And let's not forget a substantial increase to the cost of the shadow field. This could just be part of the increased effectiveness.
Feel No Pain states that, if passed, it is as if the wound never happened - ergo, no reason to take a grounding test, or lose the Field.
Just sayin'
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Post by Joelercoaster on Oct 18, 2014 17:58:25 GMT -6
In other words... Personally, from a balance side more then anything I think it should cancel the field if he fails a save regardless of FNP. Likewise, for much the same reason, I think FNP shouldn't negate grounding tests. As is, anyone attacking a archon is hitting a 2++ save, add in a 1 in 3 (often times a 1 in 2) chance of just getting it back and I think your looking at something borderline un-balancing. I mean, DE don't even pay for FNP. FMCs are likewise very hard to hurt now, having to wound them really shut down small arms being able to do much of anything against them. Allowing the FNP granted by their powers to potentially ignore grounding makes it so anything but pure luck, or a heavy amount of AA, are just going to fail to do much of anything. Also, ust because the beetle doesn't feel the hole in his wing doesn't mean its not there. I don't know how to cause wounds to a T3 character.
Plus side, the only way to get a 4+ FNP on the Archon is to have a Chronos Babysit him/her... which is not inexpensive, nor all that easy... so you're rather unlikely to be seeing that happen on a regular basis.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2014 17:58:31 GMT -6
It makes sense for FMCs, since feel no pain prevents a wound and you only test grounding if you suffer a wound. Regardless of RAW, that would change the chance to cause a grounding test by 33% per shot. Considering that it is already so hard to to ground FMCs, do they need a 33% buff? In every game I've had against tyranids since their new dex I'm lucky to ground an FMC once over the entire game length. Granted, I don't take dedicated AA. I just worry about how powerful that could truly be. For example, my twin-linked multi-meltas presently only have an 8% chance of grounding a T6 FMC, with FNP working as stated above that changes to 2%. That means ten immolators firing at an FMC over the course of five rounds will statistically force one grounding. As stated though, immolators aren't AA. By comparison, a Quad Gun only has 14% chance of grounding vs. armor 4+ with FNP functioning that way, and 5% vs. 3+ armor. Perhaps I'm just salty over how strong FMCs seem now. Anyone else want to weigh in on the matter?
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Post by Joelercoaster on Oct 18, 2014 19:29:42 GMT -6
To be fair, "grounding" is just a bonus-wound on top of the wounds you're actually doing by shooting the FMC in the first place. It's a cinematic in-game rule, more than a balance issue in the first place. If you're having trouble with FMC's, it's not because you can't ground them - it's because you, as you said, aren't taking anti-air.
It's the same as taking no AP2 weapons in my army, and then saying "Terminators pass most of their saves, so shouldn't the game rules be different?".
That Quad-gun, even un-manned, will still kill a Crone in two rounds of firing, without grounding tests. That's 8 shots at better-than-BS3 (TL BS2), with 2's to wound and no armor (yay 4+ saves). Sure, it can Jink, but then it's unable to do anything (can't drop-assault anymore, and can only try to snap-shoot its haywire missiles). I guess it can still Vector Strike, but that's not much of a threat these days, unless the target is already near-death.
FMC grounding in the last edition was horribly imbalanced - it absolutely needed this buff. Again, Grounding is a chance to cause *bonus wounds*, not a replacement for the firepower you're throwing into it.
Apropos of nothing, when's the last time your Heldrake got grounded? wink.
But seriously. The stance of "My personal build suffers vs X" is never a good reason to say that X needs to be better or worse. Any army will suffer vs the thing it didn't bring tools to face - that's why we (as a general horde of stinky gamers) tend to build well rounded, all-comer's lists. Sure, I like to keep fluff as much as the next guy (you don't see me allying in imperials or whatever else). Honestly I don't even take Eldar allies all that often, although I totally would for Apoc and other big games (I just run out of points with all the DE specialness I want to have). But I do stop to think "How will I deal with X, Y, and/or Z?".
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2014 20:01:42 GMT -6
But seriously. The stance of "My personal build suffers vs X" is never a good reason to say that X needs to be better or worse. Any army will suffer vs the thing it didn't bring tools to face - that's why we (as a general horde of stinky gamers) tend to build well rounded, all-comer's lists. I'm not so much complaining that my build can't do it all, as much as saying I think FMCs are already pretty strong and I would really mourn the loss of my sisters being able to play against FMCs (as the SoB only have a FW plane and the ADL). I'm not proposing that FMCs are over-powered, but I think grounding does alot more then just cause one wound, it allows infantry units a chance to do something. An all comers list for Tyranids or Daemons can easily consist of all FMCs, but AA has to be dedicated for any other army (particularly so for imperials). I suppose the power of FMCs is that they are versatile, and to make up for that IMO they can be grounded compared to fliers. I feel I'm getting invested in this rule discrepancy to much, therefore I digress.
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Post by Nick P on Oct 18, 2014 22:11:51 GMT -6
It makes sense for FMCs, since feel no pain prevents a wound and you only test grounding if you suffer a wound. Regardless of RAW, that would change the chance to cause a grounding test by 33% per shot. It shouldn't be "changing" anything, since this is how the rule is written and universally played - have your opponents been doing otherwise?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2014 22:43:39 GMT -6
Regardless of RAW, that would change the chance to cause a grounding test by 33% per shot. It shouldn't be "changing" anything, since this is how the rule is written and universally played - have your opponents been doing otherwise? That is a fair point. This was new info to me, so its changes my perception of how difficult it is to ground something by 33%. However I suppose its largely irrelevant. On further inspection with books in hand, that is simply the way it works. It just also means I have zero ideas about how to deal with any serious number of FMC psykers.
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Post by Nick P on Oct 18, 2014 23:18:22 GMT -6
Yeah they're tough man, real tough. Luckily the psychic phase is tougher than it used to be as well, in terms of getting spells cast. And since sisters have adamantium will (or did I make that up?) you're better at dispelling than most. Other than that, grab your aegis line or some AM allies to deal with fliers in general, but especially FMCS. A hydra freaking wrecks a hive tyrant or demon prince man, plain and simple.
Or since everything is scoring now, sit your unit of sisters with meltas on a sky fire nexus and go to town.
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Post by Russell on Oct 18, 2014 23:19:34 GMT -6
Feel no pain states that the wound is saved when a fnp roll is made, so I would argue that whatever bullshit dark eldar shield sticks around. If it said the would was negated or something like that, I would say otherwise.
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Post by Russell on Oct 18, 2014 23:20:21 GMT -6
Wait, does the field fail on a failed save, or a suffered wound?
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Post by Nick P on Oct 18, 2014 23:26:45 GMT -6
It's on an unsaved wound, just reread it. Wow so I think I agree with Joel on this one...if the FNP catches it, the field stays up. I thought they kept the wording from the old version, where if you specifically failed yo he invuln save it went down, but this version just says "a model equipped with a shadow field has a 2+ invulnerable save, however this save is lost for the rest of the battle at the end of the phase in which the model suffers an unsaved wound".
I highly doubt that was GWs intent, but till we see a faq that's exactly how it should be played given RAW.
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Post by Russell on Oct 18, 2014 23:28:06 GMT -6
Seems pretty straightforward then, albeit a tad strong.
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