doubleback
novice
I rock harder than most, yet less hard than some.
Posts: 1,262
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Post by doubleback on Nov 28, 2017 10:23:47 GMT -6
I hope they don't stick to that religiously when in need of a hotfix. Part of the reason I think 8th works so well is that they tweak it when needed.
SO are they doing a chapter approved every year?
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doubleback
novice
I rock harder than most, yet less hard than some.
Posts: 1,262
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Post by doubleback on Nov 30, 2017 10:10:14 GMT -6
Man nick, you see that sexy new stratagem for wraiths? That could be brutal if you roll well
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Post by Nick P on Nov 30, 2017 10:58:55 GMT -6
Meh, I don't think its going to be that useful. Its for one turn only, so its not as good as what they could get in 7th ed (RP for the game).
I mean if you're down to one wraith and have a cryptek nearby, then popping it for 2CP can help you bring back half your unit, but I'm really hoping the codex just gives them back RP as a form of invuln save like disgustingly resilient.
Having a chance to come back to life after you're already dead isn't a useful tool, and right now the necrons pay a premium to have it (unit costs are way up across the board).
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doubleback
novice
I rock harder than most, yet less hard than some.
Posts: 1,262
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Post by doubleback on Nov 30, 2017 12:34:00 GMT -6
Sadly I think that is a pipe dream for two reasons- A- They seem to have gone all in on the new "come back to life" system B- That would basically just make them the Death Guard, most of who have a disgustingly resilient 5+ fnp
That said, I do agree and have agreed with that since the index came out. I loved the fnp mechanic (hence my choice of Death Guard for my new army) and coming back to life makes it too easy to fall to concentrated fire power form far too many armies. I still think, in the context of the new Necrons, that this stratagem isn't bad at all, as long as you are taking full units of Wraiths, but I also agree that it is situational at best. I was far more impressed with the new Ork strat, which is a damn game changer.
I am still hopeful for the codex. You can make the coming back to life ability very powerful with some simple tweaks, and it does not mean that you can't give better saves to some of the other units like wraiths, just that making it the core mechanic of the army might not be viable.
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Post by Nick P on Nov 30, 2017 14:11:02 GMT -6
Basically you need to make sure that the models are actually still alive to take advantage of the mechanic that you're, in theory, paying points for when you make your army list. So they need to either increase it to 4+ so that its more reliable when you DO get to use it, to make up for the times when units will be removed wholesale and be unable to take advantage of it at all...OR they need to be able to attempt it after a unit has attacked them before the next one attacks. But then you're basically just using it as a FNP again, so that's wonky.
That being said, I'm sure we'll get a warlord trait or relic that lets us add +1 to RP within 6" of the warlord or something like that, so with a cryptek we can get some units up to a 3+, which will help; and I'm sure we'll get something to re-attempt it for a single unit for 2CP or something, and maybe we'll even get an "auto pass" version where you just add X amount of wounds back to a unit.
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Post by Eric formerly Eric on Nov 30, 2017 14:51:32 GMT -6
Having played several games against necrons in this edition, i actually think RP is pretty powerful as is. Maybe smaller, more elite units could use an RP 4+ or something, but you are really underestimating the ability to regain models throughout the rest of the game. Forcing focus fire really is a big strategy in this game. If ive taken our 10 genestealers or 15 devilgaunts, I've seriously stunted their offensive potential. But you can't leave a necron unit alive and you can't ignore them. I've had games where 4 lychguard come back to life and butchered my backfield. I've had games where 500 points of close combat monsters were locked up with warriors for 2-3 turns cause the warriors kept reanimating. Idk, in my experience, the RP mechanic has been pretty useful (and unique).
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Post by Eric formerly Eric on Nov 30, 2017 14:52:39 GMT -6
Honestly, it sounds like some units just need points decreases (or an RP buff)
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doubleback
novice
I rock harder than most, yet less hard than some.
Posts: 1,262
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Post by doubleback on Nov 30, 2017 15:27:32 GMT -6
Having played several games against necrons in this edition, i actually think RP is pretty powerful as is. Maybe smaller, more elite units could use an RP 4+ or something, but you are really underestimating the ability to regain models throughout the rest of the game. Forcing focus fire really is a big strategy in this game. If ive taken our 10 genestealers or 15 devilgaunts, I've seriously stunted their offensive potential. But you can't leave a necron unit alive and you can't ignore them. I've had games where 4 lychguard come back to life and butchered my backfield. I've had games where 500 points of close combat monsters were locked up with warriors for 2-3 turns cause the warriors kept reanimating. Idk, in my experience, the RP mechanic has been pretty useful (and unique). I agree with Nick, that overall the fnp was more effective, but you bring up some excellent points. I will also be first to say that part of the problem that a lot of necron players (myself included) have not embraced the new changes and therefore made the most of them the way your friend likely has, being such a new player. I do think that there are a lot of options with the current mechanic, and a lot of ways to make it even more competitive, and I still retain exceptionally high hopes for the new codex. The real issue with the new RP rule is that is no longer really benefits small squads the way a fnp did. Now a group of 5 lych guard or 5 Praetorians can be easily removed and not come back, whereas with a 4+ fnp even a small unit had staying power, which gave necrons a ton of tactical flexibility. I am not saying the ability to bring units back isn't useful, just that it overwhelmingly benefits large units. It's the same issue Orks are facing with the changes to mob rule.....you ether bring a large unit, or you lose it in one turn. It pigeon holes you into one play style if you want to use your main advantage, which I think is a bad design flaw. With some well placed tweaks I think there are ways to easily fix this Another of my biggest gripes is the changes to Gauss. When we were the only troops able to wound anything on a 6 that meant something. The paltry -1AP we now get somehow seems wildly less effective or unique. I think, for their price, warriors need a little something more to justify their current price....or you could just lower the cost. Overall though, if you are going to keep RP exactly as it is now, then you are going to have to lower prices across the board to allow for the significantly larger units needed to take advantage of it. Again though, I really think we should keep our hopes high for the Codex. Overall GW has not disappointed, and the changes to Nids were amazing. I think they have the wherewithal to make all the current army options viable.
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Post by Eric formerly Eric on Nov 30, 2017 15:56:40 GMT -6
Yeah to be clear, i am not arguing that current RP is better than FNP. It's just different and still effective. Necrons were really way too good last edition if you brought a decurion. Shielded lychguard were ridiculous. I think the issue is that necrons and tau were clearly nerfed but other armies like eldar werent.
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Post by Eric formerly Eric on Nov 30, 2017 15:58:22 GMT -6
I actually like gauss a lot. If not for primaris, warriors would have the best basic gun in the game. It's not unique at all though, to your point.
Also, warriors are the same price as genestealers and 1 pt cheaper than tactical marines. I think they're fairly priced. Maybe -1 pt?
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Post by Joelercoaster on Dec 1, 2017 7:37:00 GMT -6
My understanding (aka, I've been told but not read the rule myself) is that the Cryptek bonus stacks - so while it's expensive and limiting in terms of mobility, you can have 2-3 Crypteks bubble-ing 2 big units of whatever for some ridiculous stand-back-up ability.
That quantum shielding or whatever is pretty hilarious though - that's meta-busting in terms of dropping vehicles.
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jesse
neophyte
Posts: 732
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Post by jesse on Dec 1, 2017 7:49:32 GMT -6
Even if We'll Be Back isn't as good as it was last edition, it works like it did back in the days of third and fourth, so that makes me happy.
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doubleback
novice
I rock harder than most, yet less hard than some.
Posts: 1,262
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Post by doubleback on Dec 1, 2017 8:48:48 GMT -6
My understanding (aka, I've been told but not read the rule myself) is that the Cryptek bonus stacks - so while it's expensive and limiting in terms of mobility, you can have 2-3 Crypteks bubble-ing 2 big units of whatever for some ridiculous stand-back-up ability. That quantum shielding or whatever is pretty hilarious though - that's meta-busting in terms of dropping vehicles. They unfortunately do not stack, the wording says “any crypek”, not “every cryptek”. It also has not been allowed in any 8th ed tournament thus far. Howeveryou can stack a cryptek with an overlord, which is still very effective and let’s not forget a cryptek also gives you a 5++ against shooting for infantry. Also something we didn’t bring up, Living Metal got way more reliable
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Post by Nick P on Dec 4, 2017 21:51:38 GMT -6
Yeah TRUE and the fact you can get d3 back with destroyer lords is dope. They basically never die
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doubleback
novice
I rock harder than most, yet less hard than some.
Posts: 1,262
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Post by doubleback on Apr 23, 2018 19:58:08 GMT -6
Anyone got any thoughts on Monoliths? I have one but have not used it much
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