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Post by Joelercoaster on Jun 5, 2017 20:06:48 GMT -6
True, rupture cannon is at least a real option, but needing both shots to hit to be reliable is very... Unreliable. Shooting twice helps but for the cost I agree I think other options are a bit more viable.
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Post by Eric formerly Eric on Jun 8, 2017 10:12:12 GMT -6
Alright, so I played my first game of 8th last night against necrons. 70 power (so about 1400 points). We essentially did the only war mission with end-of-game objective markers. He had a mixed cron force of warriors, lychguard, praetorians, ghostarc, etc. So actually a good mix of shooting and cc.
I went heavy on the monsters, kinda randomized the equipment. Walkrant, old one eye, trygon, fexes, haruspex, and some small units of warriors, stealers, Rippers and gants. So lots of monsters, almost no synapse.
First of all, haruspex is like a the epitomy of a distraction Carnifex. He was an absolute tank with T8 13W. I misused him and charged at a vehicle, when really he is best against massed infantry. He only regains wounds and gets extra attacks through killing models, and AP -1 and D3 damage is not at all reliable against armor. Honestly, I'll probably stick with the Exocrine instead for his reliable long range damage. Speaking of AP -1, D3 damage, I really couldn't find a use for the heavy venom cannon. I think I only chipped one wound total off the annihilation barge from it.
Monstrous talons and Boneswords all did work on the HT and fexes. Old one eye is an absolute beast. 3+ to hit, rerolling 1s, with extra attacks for each hit was amazing. I made the mistake of using his thresher scythe tail for one round of combat against some warriors before realizing that he gets the same amount of hits using his talons. The boost for other carnifexes didn't actually come into play though, because Brendan was able to force them to stretch out outside of the 6" range through positioning.
Also, the trygon is an absolute beast in combat. However, I'm probably gonna stick with a trygon prime because Brendan was able to force it into some unideal combats through positioning. Once our units started getting into combat around objectives, being able to charge the cryptek 4" or the lychguard 5" away rather than the Warriors who are already engaged 2" away would be game changing.
Genestealers didn't do much, but they took some attention away from the carnifexes. They definitely would've done damage if the fexes were targeted instead. Praetorians were able to withstand a charge from the last 2 and tear them apart.
I was hoping to have the Rippers pop out and camp on an objective late-game, but they were pretty easy to kill off.
Tyranid psychic powers are nice boosts, but certainly not op. Catalyst helped keep the haruspex alive. Onslaught wasnt actually needed. Smite was pretty helpful in clearing out some potential tarpitters.
Warriors were alright. I think I like the strangler over the venom cannon. Deathspitters with and without maggots are definitely the way to go for dakka though.
Trygon tunnel with Termagants was a moderate success. I split 50-50 fleshborers/devourers, so didn't maximize
Overall, it was a good, even game. A little more synapse and getting better matchups for my monsters would've improved things. Not a huge fan of the bio-cannons, but deathspitters, talons, and boneswords were all good.
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Post by Joelercoaster on Jun 8, 2017 10:38:01 GMT -6
HVC's definitely seem like something you have to go heavy on and work in tandem on paper. They may or may not be worth the investment in the end, but Nids seem to have a slew of decent weapon options, so there's bound to be something for what ails you.
I think this battle shows the importance of Synapse... at least we're moderately functional without it (we don't eat ourselves anymore) but it's definitely something that you want coverage with. Not to mention being immune to Morale is pretty huge.
I want to test out my initial list, but am leaning pretty heavily toward working in an Exocrine instead of the Trygon.
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Post by Eric formerly Eric on Jun 8, 2017 10:47:02 GMT -6
I think both of them would be good. Trygon to get down field and exocrine to sit back.
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Post by Eric formerly Eric on Jun 8, 2017 10:48:10 GMT -6
Also morale is really only an issue with 10+ model units in most armies anyway. Necron 5-man units are completely immune.
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Post by Joelercoaster on Jun 8, 2017 12:42:31 GMT -6
Both certainly have promise, but S7 combat vs S7 shooting at long range has for a long time been a no-brainer. Obviously the times are a-changin'... so I'd love for the Trygon to be a great option. It's telling that it's one of our cheapest MC's though.
I guess I wish the Trygon was a threat to heavy vehicles... anything T8+ (so, really big stuff) the Trygon only gets like 3-4 damage (expected)... and that's really not anything special. The Haruspex with its claws can really eat into big vehicles, but unfortunately doesn't have a lot of attacks, or a great WS (it's not bad, and vs infantry you're gobbling people and getting bonus attacks, sooo...).
Still, on the whole we have way more options, so that's great. Why is it that small squads are immune? Is it the idea that once you've taken enough casualties to be effected, you're basically dead anyway? I would think Necrons would hate that, as that negates their ability to just stand back up ALL BLOODY GAME. Sheesh. They scary.
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Post by Eric formerly Eric on Jun 8, 2017 13:12:01 GMT -6
Yeah. Since it's D6 + casualties- leadership, L10 necrons need 5 casualties. before it's even possible to fail a morale test.
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Post by Eric formerly Eric on Jun 8, 2017 13:23:23 GMT -6
The trygon prime causes more damage with his weapons though and ignored cover saves. So I think he's still the better bet against T8. Exocrine has to stay still and have a synapse babysitter in order to avg 4 wounds. Im thinking about picking up some hive guard as extra anti armor.
It's quite possible that tyranids are the best anti-T6/T7 faction but still terrible against super heavies
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Post by Nick P on Jun 8, 2017 15:00:15 GMT -6
My take on taking down large vehicles is this - they changed the To Wound chart, so it doesn't matter if a vehicle is T8, or T13 (does that exist?) for that matter - we're always wounding on 5s. So it just becomes a numbers game - how many attacks can we throw to get there.
Trygons and Trygon Primes should be doing serious work in theory - but math wise they're only doing ~6-7 wounds per combat phase. That kinda sucks. Granted, they have the potential to be doing upwards of 30, but that's going to be nuts.
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Post by Eric formerly Eric on Jun 8, 2017 15:10:58 GMT -6
We can always throw a 20 man horde of stealers at it too
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Post by Eric formerly Eric on Jun 8, 2017 15:12:52 GMT -6
I have to say, our mobility is great now. Especially with onslaught and no slowdown from difficult terrain. Turn 2 charges were pretty inevitable.
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Post by Joelercoaster on Jun 8, 2017 15:20:59 GMT -6
I still welcome 5-man necrons so that they're less likely to keep standing back up xD But I def see the math there.
I think vs T8 they actually have similar expectations... standing still the Exo expects 2, maybe 3 wounds (probably 4 dmg) where the Trygon will probably only score one, so averages 3-4 also (but as you said, that's not counting cover or other factors).
I think hive guard are back to being a solid option... the harpoons are heavy, sure, but you can move and fire on a 4+, and without needing LoS (much rarer now it seems) *and* a huge range buff, it's a great unit to sit in the middle of the board and just rain down fire where you need it.
On the whole our shooting is much improved... HVC's aren't lascannons, but they're real weapons now (stranglethorn, too). Impalers are great, biovores cause mortal wounds, and exocrines can shoot twice. It's nasty.
EDIT - because I took too long typing things.
But yeah, actually I think a blob of Stealers is probably one of our best bets vs really heavy stuff. 10 Stealers at 4 attacks (or is it >10? close enough) are doing 4-5 rends... so basically the same damage output of a Trygon vs a T8+ thing. It's kind of awesome, and kind of sad.
Actually, aren't RC's AP -4? So better than the Talons? xD
Stealers are great.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2017 15:21:47 GMT -6
It is important to think about the wound chart changes like Nick pointed out. Everything is having a harder time wounding, so even if something doesn't sound like its getting a lot of wounds a turn, it's par for the course. Personally, I find the d6 damage weapons to be the most appealing because you can use a strategem to reroll the d6.That ups the average damage for those weapons significantly. Even if you don't out right destroy a vehicle, if you maim it to the point that its hitting sufficiently worse then you've succeeded in mitigating its impact. It's a change in the tactics of vehicle combat.
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Post by Joelercoaster on Jun 8, 2017 15:27:55 GMT -6
Very true.. I don't ever plan to strip 40 wounds off a Morkonaut, but I can maybe drop it down to be less effective.
And there really are quite a few T6-7 vehicles that a Trygon will just be nasty against. Part of me just wants to see MC's roll up and rip things to shreds, but that's not how it works (and not even how it necessarily needs to work).
They'll be an absolute terror to units like Primarines, and even Terminators (then again, Exocrines eat those for breakfast too xD)
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2017 15:36:07 GMT -6
They'll be an absolute terror to units like Primarines, and even Terminators (then again, Exocrines eat those for breakfast too xD) The difference of course there though is that should you fail to kill the whole unit the Assault unit keeps the marines tied up, protecting your other bugs from bolt rifles. Of course the marines could fall back, but then they are still not shooting.
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