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Post by OneEyeRob on Jan 24, 2017 9:43:38 GMT -6
Eric, keep in mind that the scoring/obsec rules for this tournament are NOT the BRB rules.
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Post by Eric formerly Eric on Jan 24, 2017 10:26:17 GMT -6
Oh I know that. But the rules say nothing about denying objectives, which is why I'm asking. It sounds like the answer is no, which is fine. I only ask cause there are current non-scoring units, like Lone Wolves, that are still able to deny objectives. And if a unit is able to deny, RAW, Obsec denial units should be able to deny Obsec scoring units. Just sayin.
Edit: I honestly don't care what the answer is. Doesn't really affect my army much. I was just wondering.
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Post by Nick P on Jan 24, 2017 11:30:16 GMT -6
Nope - since they aren't scoring, they effectively lose objective secured. If a unit can't hold an objective, a rule that says "it always counts as holding an objective over a unit without this rule" doesn't come into play. Actually, I've come to the opposite conclusion RAW. As you said, Obsec reads "over a unit without this rule". Obsec rhinos (for example) have that rule even if it isn't active. Thus, RAW, Obsec infantry could not score if an Obsec rhino was contesting because it has the rule too. Objective Secured: "All Troops units from this Detachment have the Objective Secured special rule. A unit with this special rule controls objectives even if an enemy scoring unit is within range of the objective marker, unless the enemy unit also has this special rule." But then we have this: “Scoring units – any unit can be scoring unless otherwise stated." So since in this format, only infantry can score (ie, "otherwise stated"), its my understanding that objective secured would not come into play at all. Just like how falling back troops explicitly can't score, when falling back they do NOT count as obsec for the purposes of contesting objectives either. This would be the same thing.
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Post by Nick P on Jan 24, 2017 11:33:04 GMT -6
I only ask cause there are current non-scoring units, like Lone Wolves, that are still able to deny objectives. I don't think that's true - where are you reading that? The Lone Wolf entry has a rule that states it is not scoring - and in the BRB, units that do not score also cannot deny. Things like zooming flyers/swooping FMCs, spore mines, etc. included. I see nothing that would make an exception for Lone Wolves.
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Post by Eric formerly Eric on Jan 24, 2017 11:39:47 GMT -6
Oh ok, you're right. People I have played against have used non-scoring units as denial units against me.... my fault for not checking them on that
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Post by jbragg77 on Jan 24, 2017 12:31:19 GMT -6
His rules as written said "Infantry units from troops", unless that has been changed.
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Post by gseed2p on Jan 24, 2017 13:06:25 GMT -6
His rules as written said "Infantry units from troops", unless that has been changed. Bullet point 1 from page one: "Type: Infantry in the CAD are the only units that score static objectives". So all infantry in the CAD are considered scoring.
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Post by Eric formerly Eric on Jan 24, 2017 13:17:11 GMT -6
Yeah my bad. I was making untrue rules assumptions based on a few games I had a while back
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Post by Nick P on Jan 24, 2017 13:24:35 GMT -6
Oh ok, you're right. People I have played against have used non-scoring units as denial units against me.... my fault for not checking them on that There's a difference between "non scoring" and "non-objective secured" though - I think you might be thinking of the latter. Non scoring are things like zooming flyers, swooping FMCs, spore mines, units that are falling back, fortifications that are unclaimed, and specific units that preclude them from scoring like Lone Wolves. Everything else - and I mean everything else - can "score" objectives (in normal 40k games that is - not this tournament). However only units in the Troops section, and in a CAD, have Objective Secured. So a unit of lychguard from a decurion can "score", but they cannot deny an objective from a unit with Objective Secured. Likewise, another scoring unit like a Landraider would be able to contest an objective held by them, since neither are objective secured. TL;DR: Everything scores unless explicitly explained in their unit entry, but objective secured trumps all.
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Post by Eric formerly Eric on Jan 24, 2017 13:53:09 GMT -6
Oh ok, you're right. People I have played against have used non-scoring units as denial units against me.... my fault for not checking them on that There's a difference between "non scoring" and "non-objective secured" though - I think you might be thinking of the latter. Non scoring are things like zooming flyers, swooping FMCs, spore mines, units that are falling back, fortifications that are unclaimed, and specific units that preclude them from scoring like Lone Wolves. Everything else - and I mean everything else - can "score" objectives (in normal 40k games that is - not this tournament). However only units in the Troops section, and in a CAD, have Objective Secured. So a unit of lychguard from a decurion can "score", but they cannot deny an objective from a unit with Objective Secured. Likewise, another scoring unit like a Landraider would be able to contest an objective held by them, since neither are objective secured. TL;DR: Everything scores unless explicitly explained in their unit entry, but objective secured trumps all. No, I know the difference. I'm saying that people I've played have used lone Wolves and spore mines, etc. to contest objectives, claiming that they can still contest even if they can't score.
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Post by 1D3chan on Jan 24, 2017 14:07:59 GMT -6
Hey guys, sorry if this is confusing. I hope this helps:
- For the purpose of this tournament, any unit that would be "Objective Secured" because of their CAD/Formation Rules, but aren't type: Infantry, will lose ObSec for this Tournament. - For example, Eldar Jetbikes would normally be Objective Secured because they are a Troop Choice in a CAD, but because they aren't infantry in this tournament, they lose ObSec - For example, a Space Marine Rhino/Drop Pod bought with a Tactical Squad in a CAD would be ObSec normally, but in this tournament, it would lose ObSec as it is not type Infantry
Troops that are infantry still do have Objective Secured in their CAD, however.
- For example, Nick has a squad of Necron Warriors from his CAD 3" from an Objective and Russell has a squad of Terminators from his CAD within 3" of the same Objective. Although both units can score normally / on their own in this format (because they are infantry from the CAD), Nick would take the objective because his unit has Objective Secured (basically he has a Troops Unit while Russell as an Elites Unit)
In my head this wasn't confusing but I could have easily missed this shot if this is confusing. I think the easiest way to think about it is Vehicles / Bikes / etc that would have ObSec normally will lose it for this tournament because they aren't infantry. Then I think everything else falls into place.
I think the nomenclature is confusing us, because we are not used to thinking about units in terms of Unit Type (Infantry, Beast, Jet Pack Infantry, Calvary) but we are used to thinking of them in terms of Force Organization (Troops, Elites, Fast Attack).
In this case, "Infantry" and "Troops" are not the same, although they can overlap (and when they do, they are basically your ObSec units)
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