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Post by Joelercoaster on Oct 3, 2015 14:01:55 GMT -6
I meant I was originally only increasing the cost by 10... between taking away IB, giving it Preferred enemy/better rending/5++ in combat, and improving all of its swarm-support roles, I figured it wouldn't be fair to just say "Yeah this is still only 50 points".
My personal view of Lictors would be to make them far more deadly hunters - I'd be happy to pay 100 pts for a single Lictor if it was capable of being the assassin it is in the fluff. That said, I figured it'd be better to have a slightly toned down version for the standard Elite, and turn the Death Leaper into the big-game hunter.
The whole cover thing is... difficult. If it were just flamers in the game, then the 5+ wouldn't bother me. It's when you get a fusillade of pulse fire that ignores cover at that oh-so-convenient AP5, or smart missiles (of course if feels like I'm just wailing on Tau here...). Normally the trade-off of heavy armor for stealth makes perfect sense. SM Scouts do the same thing. Ignores Cover has become so prevalent, though, that the trade-off stops being worth it when you're otherwise so vulnerable to small-arms fire.
It's the idea that being able to ignore cover is generally always helpful (you can cast the power on a plasma cannon and aim at Termies in ruins for max effect), but trading armor for cover is only worth it if most armies don't have easy access to deny your bonus.
Lictors are tough. I want them to be a fun, useful unit... it can be hard to find that right balance, though.
The Prime, though... definitely needs to be the budget option HQ. Probably should drop down to 80, like it used to be, and with the psy powers and better weapons, it should (hopefully) be at least on par with a marine captain type character.
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Post by Nick P on Oct 4, 2015 12:04:19 GMT -6
I wholly agree with Jeff - rather than diving in and trying to tweak everything in the dex (adjusting points, creating new profiles, giving different special rules) just take each unit and add/subtract various things to make it worth its points.
Lictors for example - no need to change their unit so drastically; I personally don't feel like the current lictor is really worth its 50 point cost unless used in a very specific build, which is the issue. Rather than reinvent the wheel, why not just add stuff to make it worth the 50 points it's already costed at?
I think making it T5, and with the reserve manipulation, would be balanced at 50 points.
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Post by Joelercoaster on Oct 5, 2015 7:43:17 GMT -6
Well, without adding those special rules, better stats, or reducing points, I'm at a bit of a loss as to how to make the current lictor worth 50 points XD
Not gonna lie, I really rushed through the elites more than I should have, in an effort to get one proper section of the book covered. I think I'm going to take a step back, and work on getting a more comprehensive book together before posting up any further profiles... it's hard to have any semblance of internal balance when you don't have the other units to look at.
As far as my general tweaks have gone... I can honestly say I think the bulk of them are out of the way. Genestealers are needing a fairly comprehensive overhaul to be anything resembling useful, but the changes to IB and Synapse will go really far for a lot of other units. Mainly changing weapon symbiotes and Bio-morphs, giving currently useless and/or sub-par units more viability.
In my opinion, some things just need to change. Take the MC Deathspitter. Well, right now we don't even actually have an MC version (unless you count twin-linking). It used to be the same cost as the brainleech worms. Now it's only 5 points. The friggin' thing could be *free* and you still would never see it taken. It's, frankly, a useless option. No one would complain if it disappeared, so long as the MC Devourers stayed. Honestly you could say that about 80% of our ranged weapons. That's a problem.
I'm going to pull out a few of the profiles I put up (ie, nearly all of them) until I'm ready to put up a more refined version.
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Post by jefferestinpeace on Oct 5, 2015 8:04:49 GMT -6
I gave some suggestions to what I'd like the Lictor to be. Hell, for me, making it simply T5 and its current ruleset is worth 50 pts. Maybe allow you to take 1-3 in a single slot but not require unit coherency. Ship it.
Also duder, since this is simply an exercise in futility, I would def recommend not rushing through anything... after all, that's what GW did to make a subpar codex in the first place.
And to make weapons useful, give them different abilities, good at different things. What do Nids lack in regards to options? Cut the redundant stuff and make something nutty. Nids don't have any melta-type weapons, D-weapons, torrents, etc. Look at the USRs and choose a cool one to make a gun with that would compete with the TL Dev. You're just playing around, so what's holding you back?
Also get crazy and try to come up with guns the Nids would have. Crazy bio-ammunition guns, stuff that fires living organisms that consume their target on impact. Giant balls of sticky alien sperm. Hell, even GW came up with electric beetles for the flamer everyone takes. Go nuts!
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Post by Joelercoaster on Oct 5, 2015 8:57:38 GMT -6
Well, without changing stats and rules, I can't very well make anything "better" (or, at the very least, different)... that was kind of the joke to that last post. I mean, take a peruse through the bio-weapons list and tell me what you think of it on the whole. I changed 90% of weapons... mostly slightly... to give them an actual role within the book, instead of a repeat of Codex: Brainleech Worms.
And don't get me wrong - I think T5 on the "warrior chassis" would be a reasonable fix to the majority of the problems those units have. Maybe simply moving to a T5, W2 profile as a general rule? Keeping the Prime at W3 from there would make him stand out as a special butterfly. I just wonder, in part, if it's a gut reaction to "Missiles hurt, and so missiles are overpowered!". Plus, the EW power really shines in an army with T4 and a high wound count, but is extremely situational with the shift to a "base T5" on all of those units. Of course, relying on a chancy power, even if it's 1/3 instead of 1/6, to not get doused isn't much fun, either.
Not to make it overpowered, but what if Catalyst was instead FnP and EW? It'd certainly be useful to everyone then, T4 or T5... it seems... maybe too much to lump those two together, though.
As to Lictors, I definitely have a vision for them as the ninja-assassins of the Tyranids, while also providing some support in the way of pheremones and whatnot. I'll nail it down, and will have to run some numbers on combat efficiency and all that. I'm starting to get a better idea of what I want to do with them. To that end, as you and Nick have both used them way more than me, what would you rate as a fair cost for the current Lictor? That'll give me a better gauge to properly cost the new version (which I'm wanting to hit the 50-75 range, depending on how nasty it gets).
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Post by jefferestinpeace on Oct 5, 2015 9:17:17 GMT -6
Well, Lone Wolves are 20 pts and could probably take a Lictor in CC. Granted, the Lictor does more than that, but nothing over 40 pts.
I still think you should shy away from the "chassis" idea. Lictors should have 3 wounds. Probably warriors too. And EW is quite nearly redundant on a T5 model.
No one's saying you shouldn't change stats and rules. I personally don't know why you wouldn't.
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Post by Nick P on Oct 5, 2015 9:17:48 GMT -6
There is no "warrior chassis" which I think is one of the issues - the Nids don't fit the STC rules that other armies tend to fit, like how all marines are equal except for their equipment, how all dark eldar are equal except for their armor and weapon load out, etc. Every nid species is unique, fits a unique role in the swarm - there's no need to just go "all elites have W3 and T5 now".
Lictors and warriors can be T5, zoans can still be T4, as can venomthropes. Its about getting each unit right, "right" here meaning useful or not a complete liability.
Taking the current lictor and giving it T5 without changing any of its current rules would make it worth 50 points. Giving it T5 and also your "reserve manipulation" rule in addition to its current rules would make it easily worth 60. I'm just saying you don't need to reinvent the wheel - it seems like you're trying to do way too much to each unit, when in most cases just a slight tweak is all that's needed (and why the codex can be so frustrating...so many things are so so close to be useful or even good, and GW just kinda let it slide).
I don't think there's anything wrong with the current brainleech devourer - I think the other weapons (deathspitters, and the heavy biocannons) need some help to stay relevant. Deathspitters being the same cost as brainleech never made sense - why would you take 3 S5 shots when you can have 6 S6 shots? Like, duh, you wouldn't. Now, if the deathspitter had armorbane...or fleshbane...you see what I mean?
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Post by Joelercoaster on Oct 5, 2015 9:51:36 GMT -6
I wholly agree with Jeff - rather than diving in and trying to tweak everything in the dex (adjusting points, creating new profiles, giving different special rules) just take each unit and add/subtract various things to make it worth its points. I think my humor just doesn't play out through the internet, for the most part. The above is what I was referencing, and again, it was meant to be a funny aside. The joke being, what 'various things' am I supposed to add/subtract if I'm disallowed from changing points, stats, or special rules? I guess I could just unlock Brainleech Devourers for everything... *cough* Anyway. I think my "chassis" comment/idea is being slightly misunderstood, although that's my own fault. I don't mean to give a blanket statline and call it a day by any means. The general idea is that, for example, a Lictor is largely a specially modified Warrior-strain. So are Raveners. All are T4 with W3 (the generic body being the same). Warriors and Raveners are both WS5, S4... Raveners are slightly faster, so I5, and Lictors are supposedly combat experts, warranting WS/I6. They're also much stronger due to their special musculature/reflexes. Zoanthropes and Biovores are also S/T4, but with lowered WS to reflect that they're not combat-beasts, but rather fill a support role. When I refer to the "Warrior Chassis", I'm simply referring to the general similarities shared by all of these mid-sized bugs. Then you have the mid-plus (Guards), which also have very similar baseline stats, adjusted for various combat-roles. As for a "need" for W3... why? And this is a legitimate question. Mathematically, T5 W2 is more or less equivalent to T4 W3 when it comes to surviving small-arms fire. The notable differences are that S8/9 no longer insta-gibbs a T5 warrior, but the W2 T5 build is more susceptible to Plasma. In a phrase, the T5 W2 version is typically far more survivable. Keep in mind that the W3 "standard" is actually very new... so do we need to keep it? Or would we be better off just moving to a different standard? Again, the term "standard" here being fairly mutable, as we *are* Tyranids. I'm re-working the HQ stuff now, but the question remains - how does the Hive Tyrant/Guard look as is? The hive tyrant in particular I'm pretty happy with the general options and viability of different builds.
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Post by Nick P on Oct 5, 2015 11:17:06 GMT -6
The point was that you were doing *all of those things* instead of just a couple tweaks that were necessary lol not "don't change things but definitely change things"
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Post by Joelercoaster on Oct 5, 2015 20:32:04 GMT -6
Well, in fairness, the Lictor is one that, personally, I have a very different view of what it "should be", than what is in the codex. So it's going to be subject to a lot of tweaks, because I can. The idea is to make what it becomes balanced, though, regardless of how it compares to the current or past versions.
The vast majority of things will retain much their same function.. Zoanthropes are still blasty brain bugs, Fexes will be the generally most mutable of our MC's, etc. Actually Fexes will probably just get access to a few biomorphs and call it a day - the biggest problem is that they don't have much in the way of reasonable options, instead relying on Brainleech to see them through 90% of everything.
So yeah, once I get everything worked out, you'll see that for the most part I'm really *not* trying to reinvent the wheel... it's just the units that *are* seeing the biggest/most changes are being worked on first, because that's where the bulk of the work is... the rest is just copy-pasta.
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Post by Joelercoaster on Oct 8, 2015 10:40:59 GMT -6
Alright, did some general clean-up, making the typical "wargear lists" so there will be less clutter in each entry. Made some small tweaks to unit profiles (all two of them) and Psy Powers on the Adaptation chart.
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Post by Joelercoaster on Oct 12, 2015 8:04:18 GMT -6
=ELITES= (the redux)
Hive Guard WS3 BS4 S5 T6 W2 I2 A2 Ld6 Sv4+ 60 pts Instinctive Behavior Harpoon Cannon - may swap for Shock Cannon (increase range to 24") - free
Zoanthropes WS3 BS4 S4 T4 W2 I2 A2 Ld10 Sv6+ 60 pts Synapse, Shadow, Psy Brotherhood lvl 2 - Generate powers from Destruction table Warp Field Zoanthrope Broods always have the Warp Blast power, and generate one further power (plus Primaris) from the Devastation table as normal. - Warp Blast is a WC2 Wychfire (witchfyre? WychFyreYyy?) which can be fired (wych can be fyred?) with one of two profiles: S:5 Ap:2 Large Blast Assault X 24" twin-linked S:D Ap: -3 Assault X 24" Warp Blast has a number of shots equal to the number of Zoanthropes in the unit
Pyrovore WS3 BS3 S4 T5 W2 I3 A2 Ld6 Sv4+ 35 pts Instinctive Behavior Weapons - Flamespurt (gains torrent) Enhancements - Acid Blood - may buy Toxin sacs, Adrenal glands - 5 points
Venomthropes WS3 BS3 S4 T5 W2 I3 A2 Ld6 Sv5+ 50 pts Instinctive Behavior, Poison(2+) Weapons - 2 sets of lash whips Enhancements - Feeder Tendrils, Toxic Miasma, Spore Cloud
Lictor WS6 BS3 S6 T5 W2 I6 A3 Ld10 Sv5+ 60 pts Deep Strike, Infiltrate, Scout, Hit & Run, Move Through Cover, Stealth Weapons - ScyTals, Rending Claws, Flesh Hooks (gain rending) Enhancements - Feeder Tendrils Chameleonic Scales - Does not scatter when Deep Striking. On the turn the lictor is deployed, and in any turn it does not move in movement phase, gain Shrouded Pheremone Trail - If friendly Tyranid unit Deep Strikes within 6" of Lictor model (measure from initial model placed) it does not scatter. As long as one or more friendly lictors is alive you may re-roll reserve rolls A Lictor may issue challenges as if it were a character
Haruspex WS4 BS3 S6 T6 I3 A3 W5 Ld7 Sv3+ 160 pts Instinctive Behavior, Feeder Beast, Rapacious Hunger(triggers on first round of combat instead of on charge) Weapons - Crushing Claws, Creeper Tongue Enhancements - Acid Blood, Leaping -Access to the following from the enhancement list... Regeneration, Toxin Sacs, Adrenal Glands -May purchase Scythe Tail - 10
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Post by Joelercoaster on Oct 13, 2015 10:32:19 GMT -6
=TROOPS=
Termagants WS3 BS3 S3 T3 W1 I4 A1 Ld5 Sv6+ Pts 4 Instinctive Behavior, Move Through Cover Scuttling Swarm - for every brood of 30 Termagants in your army, one Tervigon may change its battlefield role from HQ to Troops.
Weapons - Fleshborer - May replace with Spinefists, Spike Rifle - free - May replace with Devourer - 4 pts
Enhancements - Toxin Sacs, Adrenal Glands - 1 pt - Scuttlers (scout) - 1 pt
Hormagaunts WS3 BS3 S3 T3 W1 I5 A2 Ld5 Sv6+ Pts 5 Instinctive Behavior, Move Through Cover
Weapons - Scything Talons Enhancements - Leaping - May buy Toxin Sacs, Adrenal Glands - 2 points - May buy Scuttlers (Scout) - 1 pt
Genestealers WS6 BS0 S4 T4 W1 I6 A2 Ld10 Sv5+ Pts 10 Stealth, Move Through Cover, Infiltrate, Scout Alien Reflexes - Genestealers do not suffer the Initiative Penalty for charging through difficult terrain
Weapons - Rending Claws - May buy Scything Talons - 2
Enhancements -Toxin Sacs, Adrenal Glands, Feeder Tendrils, Fused Carapace - 2
Warriors WS5 BS3 S4 T5 W2 I4 A3 Ld10 Sv4+ 30 Pts Synapse, Shadow, Psy Brotherhood Lvl I - Generate from Adaptation, Move Through Cover
Weapons - Scything Talons, Devourer - May replace Scything Talons with weapons from the melee list - May replace Devourer with: Scything Talons, Spinefists - free Deathspitter - 5
One model in the brood may replace Devourer with Barbed Strangler or Venom Cannon - 10
Enhancements - May buy Toxin, Adrenals, Fused Carapace, Leaping - 3
Rippers WS2 BS2 S3 T3 W3 I3 A4 Ld4 Sv6+ Pts 10 Instinctive Behavior Move Through Cover, Swarm Mindless Hunger - Rippers are treated as being Fearless. Further, on any failed IB test, rippers automatically generate the Feed result on the IB table. Sea of claws - Ripper swarms have the Rending special rule in close combat
Weapons - May buy Spine Fists - 2 Enhancements -Burrowers (Deep Strike) - 5 - Toxin, Adrenals - 2
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Post by Nick P on Oct 13, 2015 11:26:46 GMT -6
LOVE those troops. Stealers seem usable without being OP (since they're still T4 with next to no save), hormies become more usable by virtue of being 1 point cheaper in a game where CC is clearly the worse option over shooting, and the warriors being a brotherhood is just making me giggle with glee.
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Post by Joelercoaster on Oct 13, 2015 11:46:27 GMT -6
Troops are actually the easiest, as most of ours are incredibly close to being fine and dandy. It's largely the cost of upgrades that are nonsensical. CC-only upgrades are too highly valued in the game, especially on models that drop like flies. I didn't want to really touch the dropping like flies part, so much as make those units/upgrades more appropriately costed. Also wanted to bring back the old Scuttling rule, because I thought it was a fun/fluffy option.
Warriors get the same adjustments, along with an option for a 3+ save to give a little more staying power. Cheaper and more versatile combat options in general means you can build a viable CC warrior unit, or have a more tanky, longer ranged support unit... they're versatile like they've always meant to be. And yeah, the joining of Synapse with Psyker (not to mention a pretty impressive bubble of AoE for the buffs) will make them a *real* support unit for the swarm.
Stealers and Rippers see the biggest changes, but still (hopefully) maintain their general roles.
Note that on the whole the Ld of our troops has dropped further (from abysmal to laughable), but with synapse creatures, namely warriors, becoming more viable, having a further reliance on them isn't a complete crutch, as something that you want to do anyway. The idea is to embrace the reliance on Synapse, but make it something you're happy to fit into the army because what bringing Synaptic units does is awesome in and of itself. Of course, they're still a lynchpin, and if exploited properly leaves your army in general disarray.
Yadda yadda, words words, glad you like it.
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