Post by Joelercoaster on Apr 22, 2015 8:40:01 GMT -6
Alright. Caveat, this is likely to get a little drawn out. Also, I was really tempted to do this in the persona of an angry Irishman trying to rabble-rouse a worker-type crowd against unfair wages/working conditions, but figured I'd stick with a more reasonable approach.
I already regret this decision.
Real time, friends. I've been called out many a time for openly expressing my displeasure with a variety of things in this game. It's never been my intention to be a total downer, or to imply that I don't really, really enjoy the game at large, and hanging out with you guys, and whatnot. It is, in fact, my general great enjoyment of these very things that makes me so verbose when I see something that, to my eye, is "bad for the game". I play this game for fun, as a casual hobby. I've done a few tournaments, but generally find the air of competitiveness less than my own cup of tea. That's not even to say that I don't think this should be a facet of the hobby, it's just not the way I want to play. That said, a clean, balanced system is really beneficial to both of these styles of gaming. Obviously for a competitive setting, one wants various armies to be on par, lest it fall down to ridiculous dice/army of choice to determine the winner, rather than any skill whatsoever. Or, maybe even worse, it turns into "Final Table, Eldar vs Eldar-with-Eldar-Allies". Every. Single. Time.
Maybe I saw the general direction that things were heading. Maybe, more likely, I've just been in the middle of it long enough to see that GW is very slow to change itself, and rectify things that need it, without breaking something else. Maybe, even more likely, I just have a low tolerance for various armies at a given time having "the power build", as that's very much the realm of competitiveness vs "balanced play for all".
At this point, I think it's pretty safe to say that the extremes that GW is willing to go to, and perhaps, simply ignore, are beyond what the community at large is willing to accept in the name of a great backstory and history-of-the-game. I've said it before, and I stand by it, that while the past 3 editions have made significant improvements toward being clearly written, and closer to balanced (in basic rules), 40K is probably one of, if not the worst, major system in circulation. But I have so much invested in this game - and I'm not talking money. I like my armies, I can create a story that I want to play out on the field. I want a campaign to build on this and let me play out my imagined (anti)hero's success (and failure).
Long story short, when the people who have been collecting an army for years because "It was the cool one I liked, regardless of how less-than-amazing it was", get angry about how "incredibly stupid-good" it now is, even to the point of *wanting to sell their stuff for a less broken army*... that's not a slap to the people standing across the table from it. That's a slap to everyone. That's when it stops being fun, to play against, and to play.
So maybe it's time for us to take the reigns, away from a company who's been pulling them left and right for years, with no regard to traffic signs or pedestrians. I've also said that I almost look forward to the downfall of GW (or at least 40k), as I honestly believe that the community-at-large would come together to build a better game anyway.
Let me be clear - I'm not suggesting we scrap the whole thing and start over. Aside from the general futility of assault, I think the core rules are decent enough (but by all means, feel free to step up and speak otherwise). I am rather wondering if we should consider the idea of a comprehensive FAQ, to be used as House Rules for the greater Chicago Style Tabletop community.
We could start by looking through the core rules, seeing what GW has FAQ'd, and see if most of that should stay or be altered. The real undertaking would be an FAQ of individual armies, with minor or major overhauls as necessary.
Eldar? Get rid of the silly amount of D weapons. Old Distort was a quite powerful rule. Maybe the new spiritseer buff would be enough to make old-Iyanden par for the course?
Bikes - are scatter lasers usually the same cost as cannons, or more? Maybe +5 points if it's usually more expensive. 1-in-3 for heavies, not every bloody bike.
From what I hear of the aspect changes (which isn't everything I'm sure) most seem to take previously unused things and make them cool... don't forget they're still T3 with middling armor.
Tau?
I'd like to see some changes to markerlights, personally. Allow cover saves, and do a 1-for-1 on reducing cover, not straight ignore for 2. Maybe cap overwatch to BS2 with 'lights?
DE
I don't mean to say "GIVE US ALL THE BUFFS", but hear me out.
I really can't see any reason that a blaster is 50% more expensive than a standard meltagun (every army I know gets them for 10 points on similar platforms). Equivalent points would, IMHO, be perfectly reasonable.
I think making Trueborn upgrades to Warriors (and the wych equivalent) is awkward and messy. I would rather see them as simple Elites, going back to the 3-10 unit size... but it's a fairly minor thing.
It makes me sad to no end that Archons have no access to AP2. Go back to old Sword- increase points, and AP2. Or at least a relic? They're supposed to be relish-in-the-kill combat mini-monsters. As is they're a WWP/Blaster delivery system.
On that note, the Archite Glaive could stand for a +1S to both modes. As-is, it is *never better* to use it one-handed. Being either a S+1 AP3 or S+2 AP2 two-handed gives meaningful options instead of one useless mode. And with that we're only looking at a S5, 6 with Drugs, 7 with Drugs and FC. Good, but hardly broken for a CC character, I'd think?
I feel Vector Dancer would be appropriate on DE flyers - at least the Razorwing.
And please, if you feel that anything DE is over the top, let me know. I'm totally open to dropping some things down a peg, but I don't know that I've ever felt supremely supreme (granted, poison vs high T armies is great, but it's just as much a detriment vs T3 types, can't touch armor, and is only putting out as many wounds at a vyper with dual cannons vs T4 things).
Nids
Why is the Tyrant BS4? Really only shooting specialists should be. Conserve that Biomass.
On that note, base cost go way down, wing cost go way up. Walkers are utterly unviable - let's fix that?
Re-work bio-weapons. Devourers are too good, and the auto-take choice on every MC that can have them. Turn them into a solid anti-infantry platform (basically go to S5), turn Deathspitters into the "mid-range" option (S7 ap4 24" Ass 3?), and make the HVC a big hitter - S9 ap3 Ass 3, secondary mode S7 AP4 template. Deathspitter = Devourer cost, HVC probably about what it is (I don't even know). Harpies would have to lose access to HVC to keep from outperforming Crones in every way.
Do something about Nid Smash? Maybe old Smash for them? Or at least adjusted in some way?
Old Vector Strike for Crone? Or is it fine as a one-shot vs basic tanks since they're so much harder to ground now?
Hive guard 60 points, BS 4, either weapon free
Warrior-sized things T5? Part of me wants to streamline the stats to at least match the toughness and wounds value (T5, W3) to any "warrior sized" thing. Barring Hive/Tyrant Guard. Or actually, Hive Guard could even go down to T5, and maybe get a 3+? Tyrant Guard would have to stay at 6 to keep from shafting the walkers.
PLEASE LET ME GET A 2+ SAVE FOR MY WALKING TYRANT. +15-20 points? Either-or with wings, thanks.
Toxicrene, I think, should have the same shrouded bubble as the... other shrouded bubble things. It feels like it was meant to, to me.
Maleceptor should... uhm... probably be like 20 points?
Stealers... stealth, and 10 points would probably go a long way to actually getting them into combat, at which point they're pretty solid.
I would love to do some re-works of Shadow in the Warp and Tyranid "psychics", especially since they only have access to their own tables, and it'd be fluffy as balls to have it work a little differently. Warp Charge based on # of synapse creatures instead of psykers? Would Warp Lance be busted as an 18" beam? As a single-shot power it's... kind of really bad. Terrible as WC2, actually. It either needs to be better or just become WC1? Thoughts?
Imperial Knights should be a LoW (as a 1-3 choice) with all applicable beneifts/restrictions.
Maybe the book Warlord charts shouldn't be 4x better than 80% of all codex warlord charts?
Maybe what I'm saying just sounds crazy. It's a lot of work for a few basement games and campaigns. Maybe we could at least come up with a CST FAQ for our events? Decide how to handle the phat Eldar D (not enough lube in the world)?
If you think this entire thing is stupid, let me know.
If you think the idea is okay, but I"m stupid and my personal "fixes" are bad, let me know.
If you think I'm just generally on to something here, let me know.
Should we jump on this as a group project? Should we hold off for a couple of months to see the new Eldar in the flesh and see how tournaments start handling it? Should I just go crawl back away from the internet for a few more days?
Let's talk this over, even if it's to say "I don't want to talk about this".
I already regret this decision.
Real time, friends. I've been called out many a time for openly expressing my displeasure with a variety of things in this game. It's never been my intention to be a total downer, or to imply that I don't really, really enjoy the game at large, and hanging out with you guys, and whatnot. It is, in fact, my general great enjoyment of these very things that makes me so verbose when I see something that, to my eye, is "bad for the game". I play this game for fun, as a casual hobby. I've done a few tournaments, but generally find the air of competitiveness less than my own cup of tea. That's not even to say that I don't think this should be a facet of the hobby, it's just not the way I want to play. That said, a clean, balanced system is really beneficial to both of these styles of gaming. Obviously for a competitive setting, one wants various armies to be on par, lest it fall down to ridiculous dice/army of choice to determine the winner, rather than any skill whatsoever. Or, maybe even worse, it turns into "Final Table, Eldar vs Eldar-with-Eldar-Allies". Every. Single. Time.
Maybe I saw the general direction that things were heading. Maybe, more likely, I've just been in the middle of it long enough to see that GW is very slow to change itself, and rectify things that need it, without breaking something else. Maybe, even more likely, I just have a low tolerance for various armies at a given time having "the power build", as that's very much the realm of competitiveness vs "balanced play for all".
At this point, I think it's pretty safe to say that the extremes that GW is willing to go to, and perhaps, simply ignore, are beyond what the community at large is willing to accept in the name of a great backstory and history-of-the-game. I've said it before, and I stand by it, that while the past 3 editions have made significant improvements toward being clearly written, and closer to balanced (in basic rules), 40K is probably one of, if not the worst, major system in circulation. But I have so much invested in this game - and I'm not talking money. I like my armies, I can create a story that I want to play out on the field. I want a campaign to build on this and let me play out my imagined (anti)hero's success (and failure).
Long story short, when the people who have been collecting an army for years because "It was the cool one I liked, regardless of how less-than-amazing it was", get angry about how "incredibly stupid-good" it now is, even to the point of *wanting to sell their stuff for a less broken army*... that's not a slap to the people standing across the table from it. That's a slap to everyone. That's when it stops being fun, to play against, and to play.
So maybe it's time for us to take the reigns, away from a company who's been pulling them left and right for years, with no regard to traffic signs or pedestrians. I've also said that I almost look forward to the downfall of GW (or at least 40k), as I honestly believe that the community-at-large would come together to build a better game anyway.
Let me be clear - I'm not suggesting we scrap the whole thing and start over. Aside from the general futility of assault, I think the core rules are decent enough (but by all means, feel free to step up and speak otherwise). I am rather wondering if we should consider the idea of a comprehensive FAQ, to be used as House Rules for the greater Chicago Style Tabletop community.
We could start by looking through the core rules, seeing what GW has FAQ'd, and see if most of that should stay or be altered. The real undertaking would be an FAQ of individual armies, with minor or major overhauls as necessary.
Eldar? Get rid of the silly amount of D weapons. Old Distort was a quite powerful rule. Maybe the new spiritseer buff would be enough to make old-Iyanden par for the course?
Bikes - are scatter lasers usually the same cost as cannons, or more? Maybe +5 points if it's usually more expensive. 1-in-3 for heavies, not every bloody bike.
From what I hear of the aspect changes (which isn't everything I'm sure) most seem to take previously unused things and make them cool... don't forget they're still T3 with middling armor.
Tau?
I'd like to see some changes to markerlights, personally. Allow cover saves, and do a 1-for-1 on reducing cover, not straight ignore for 2. Maybe cap overwatch to BS2 with 'lights?
DE
I don't mean to say "GIVE US ALL THE BUFFS", but hear me out.
I really can't see any reason that a blaster is 50% more expensive than a standard meltagun (every army I know gets them for 10 points on similar platforms). Equivalent points would, IMHO, be perfectly reasonable.
I think making Trueborn upgrades to Warriors (and the wych equivalent) is awkward and messy. I would rather see them as simple Elites, going back to the 3-10 unit size... but it's a fairly minor thing.
It makes me sad to no end that Archons have no access to AP2. Go back to old Sword- increase points, and AP2. Or at least a relic? They're supposed to be relish-in-the-kill combat mini-monsters. As is they're a WWP/Blaster delivery system.
On that note, the Archite Glaive could stand for a +1S to both modes. As-is, it is *never better* to use it one-handed. Being either a S+1 AP3 or S+2 AP2 two-handed gives meaningful options instead of one useless mode. And with that we're only looking at a S5, 6 with Drugs, 7 with Drugs and FC. Good, but hardly broken for a CC character, I'd think?
I feel Vector Dancer would be appropriate on DE flyers - at least the Razorwing.
And please, if you feel that anything DE is over the top, let me know. I'm totally open to dropping some things down a peg, but I don't know that I've ever felt supremely supreme (granted, poison vs high T armies is great, but it's just as much a detriment vs T3 types, can't touch armor, and is only putting out as many wounds at a vyper with dual cannons vs T4 things).
Nids
Why is the Tyrant BS4? Really only shooting specialists should be. Conserve that Biomass.
On that note, base cost go way down, wing cost go way up. Walkers are utterly unviable - let's fix that?
Re-work bio-weapons. Devourers are too good, and the auto-take choice on every MC that can have them. Turn them into a solid anti-infantry platform (basically go to S5), turn Deathspitters into the "mid-range" option (S7 ap4 24" Ass 3?), and make the HVC a big hitter - S9 ap3 Ass 3, secondary mode S7 AP4 template. Deathspitter = Devourer cost, HVC probably about what it is (I don't even know). Harpies would have to lose access to HVC to keep from outperforming Crones in every way.
Do something about Nid Smash? Maybe old Smash for them? Or at least adjusted in some way?
Old Vector Strike for Crone? Or is it fine as a one-shot vs basic tanks since they're so much harder to ground now?
Hive guard 60 points, BS 4, either weapon free
Warrior-sized things T5? Part of me wants to streamline the stats to at least match the toughness and wounds value (T5, W3) to any "warrior sized" thing. Barring Hive/Tyrant Guard. Or actually, Hive Guard could even go down to T5, and maybe get a 3+? Tyrant Guard would have to stay at 6 to keep from shafting the walkers.
PLEASE LET ME GET A 2+ SAVE FOR MY WALKING TYRANT. +15-20 points? Either-or with wings, thanks.
Toxicrene, I think, should have the same shrouded bubble as the... other shrouded bubble things. It feels like it was meant to, to me.
Maleceptor should... uhm... probably be like 20 points?
Stealers... stealth, and 10 points would probably go a long way to actually getting them into combat, at which point they're pretty solid.
I would love to do some re-works of Shadow in the Warp and Tyranid "psychics", especially since they only have access to their own tables, and it'd be fluffy as balls to have it work a little differently. Warp Charge based on # of synapse creatures instead of psykers? Would Warp Lance be busted as an 18" beam? As a single-shot power it's... kind of really bad. Terrible as WC2, actually. It either needs to be better or just become WC1? Thoughts?
Imperial Knights should be a LoW (as a 1-3 choice) with all applicable beneifts/restrictions.
Maybe the book Warlord charts shouldn't be 4x better than 80% of all codex warlord charts?
Maybe what I'm saying just sounds crazy. It's a lot of work for a few basement games and campaigns. Maybe we could at least come up with a CST FAQ for our events? Decide how to handle the phat Eldar D (not enough lube in the world)?
If you think this entire thing is stupid, let me know.
If you think the idea is okay, but I"m stupid and my personal "fixes" are bad, let me know.
If you think I'm just generally on to something here, let me know.
Should we jump on this as a group project? Should we hold off for a couple of months to see the new Eldar in the flesh and see how tournaments start handling it? Should I just go crawl back away from the internet for a few more days?
Let's talk this over, even if it's to say "I don't want to talk about this".
