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Post by Nick P on Mar 30, 2015 11:55:07 GMT -6
I thought about doing all kinds of shenanigans with allied Eldar, doing an Eldar CAD with 2 farseers and a bunch of jetbikes + wraithknights, alongside a CAD of DE with venom spam, and even debated going DE/Eldar with daemon summoning. However, I've decided I want to make the DE list work on its own - but the only real way to give it a chance vs the main 3-4 Net Lists out there (triptide/Cadre Firebase, Daemon summoning/serpent spam, Hive Tyrants, and Knights) is to spam Lances and Splinter cannons wherever I can - and it all fits into a single CAD, so good news:
HQ
Archon - blaster, haywire grenades, shadowfield, webway portal
Elite
Trueborn - 4x blasters, 1x splinter rifle, Raider, night shields
Trueborn - 4x blasters, 1x splinter rifle, venom, 2x splinter cannons
Troops
Warriors - 4x splinter rifle, 1x blaster, venom, 2x splinter cannons
Warriors - 4x splinter rifle, 1x blaster, venom, 2x splinter cannons
Warriors - 4x splinter rifle, 1x blaster, venom, 2x splinter cannons
Warriors - 4x splinter rifle, 1x blaster, venom, 2x splinter cannons
Fast Attack
Razorwing - 2x dark lances, 4x monoscythe missiles
Razorwing - 2x dark lances, 4x monoscythe missiles
Razorwing - 2x dark lances, 4x monoscythe missiles
Heavy Support
Ravager - 3x dark lances, nightshields
Ravager - 3x dark lances, nightshields
Ravager - 3x dark lances, nightshields
Total is 1840. 10 points to screw with, but probably won't touch it, might just upgrade the raider to a dark lance instead of using the dissie cannon, but i like having at least that one source of S5 AP2 to scare off terminators.
The name of the game is maneuverability and MSU - everything takes a relatively small footprint, can move up to 30" in a single turn to grab objectives or move to an optimal position, raider with the blasterborn + archon can perfect DS in (if no interceptor) to plop 5 S8 AP2 lances into the back of some vehicle (or force a knight to put his shield behind him,so my ravagers can fuck him up).
5 venoms = 72 poison shots to take out tyrants, riptides, wraithknights. 9 non-skyfire dark lances, 6 skyfire dark lances, to take care of anti-knight and anti-serpent. 12 S6 large blasts from the flyers are going to decimate infantry blobs.
The idea here is that everything is deadly to a specific target, and redundant - so even if the opponent gets turn 1, and I'm in range, they aren't going to eliminate whatever units they're most threatened by. Mathwise, should be able to take out a knight in 1 turn, 2 serpents in a turn, a riptide in a turn, 2 tyrants in a single turn. Not as good as some other lists out there against the big 4, but decent enough for my liking.
Thoughts, concerns, obvious weaknesses (outside of potentially reserving 4 of my 12 units?
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Post by jefferestinpeace on Mar 30, 2015 12:01:39 GMT -6
It looks really good and terrifying. I'd say you're destined to lose a Kill Points mission though, but there's not much you can do about that with DE, except reserve everything. The 3 Razorwings will help with that.
You find one Skyfire Nexus and you're gonna fuck a lot of shit up. Don't forget to roll those Mysterious Objectives up. And don't forget Power from Pain either; we all know how you love to not play the codex.
Have you looked at the Formations at all? I know some can be pretty nasty.
I'm really curious about Knights at this thing.
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dex
neophyte
STATUS
Posts: 739 
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Post by dex on Mar 30, 2015 12:03:30 GMT -6
Looks solid, my 3 issues would be:
-Lack of reserve manipulation with 3 flyers and the Archon worries me.
-Maelstrom could pull your units into bad positions early and you really don't have that many to spare. Definitely remember that your Venom's are obsec even when empty.
-In non Maelstrom play seriously consider heavier reserves if you lack LOS blockers I am afraid you lose your mobility to early against a good player if the end game is objectives, and you really want your planes killing stuff before it can off your venoms.
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Post by Nick P on Mar 30, 2015 12:21:05 GMT -6
I agree completely, with both of you - reserve manipulation is frustrating, but its just not fluffy to bring a freaking bastion along with the comms relay...that being said, I could use an excuse to make up a sweet looking DE building all spikey and rapey.
Using the venoms on their own to obsec is going to be key, I need to watch out to make sure I'm not over committing to objectives too early, letting my opponent kill my stuff, allowing him to run roughshod over me for the final few turns for the victory.
Defintiely worried about kill points - knowing what style of missions we're playing will be key. If its mostly maelstrom, then having 8 obsec units, 4 of which are fast AF, will be a boon - but I'll need to make sure that the biggest threats are defeated before I start throwing AV10 HP2 units around the boards willy nilly.
Keeping stuff in reserve when there isn't a lot of LoS blocking terrain is going to be key too. This is very much a surgical army - have to be very precise in my deployment/positioning relative to my opponent, make sure I'm in threat range while doing everything possible to keep them out.
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dex
neophyte
STATUS
Posts: 739
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Post by dex on Mar 30, 2015 12:25:14 GMT -6
Lets make sure to do a few afternoons of practice games, I have enough stuff to throw down 3 or 4 of the top armies you will face and play them well enough  |
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Post by Nick P on Mar 30, 2015 12:27:00 GMT -6
Have you looked at the Formations at all? I know some can be pretty nasty. Yeah so all of the formations are focused on the coven lists; there is a decent amount of ability to spam more venoms/raiders, since most of the formations are things like "bring a haemy, and 3 units of 5 wracks in 3 venoms/10 wracks in 3 raiders - everything gets FnP 4+ and fearless" type of things. I see the Grotesquerie (bunch of grotesques with a haemy, 4+ fnp, +1 to power from pain, and a random buff on a D6 - +1S, +1A, +1I, etc) rolling around fairly often from some promenant DE players, as well as the covenite coterie (talos, chronos, haemy - all combined into a unit, 4+ FnP, IWND, and a +1 to their power from pain). But frankly I don't see a lot of synergy for that here. Might be useful if it wasn't a double CAD tourney, since I could take a bunch of venoms in FA and then slap on a formation to add some more, but too much of the formations are focused on close combat (as is most of the Coven supplement), and that just don't win you games man! |
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Post by Nick P on Mar 30, 2015 14:18:42 GMT -6
Here's another option, this I think addresses some of the questions about reserve manipulation and having so many AV10 HP2 vehicles:
HQ
Archon - blaster, haywire grenades, wwp, shadowfield (warlord, strategic)
Archon - blaster, haywire grenades, wwp
Elite
5 Trueborn - 4 blasters, Raider, nightshield
5 Trueborn - 4 blasters, Raider, nightshield
Troop
5 Warriors - 1 blaster, venom, 2x splinter cannons
5 Warriors - 1 blaster, venom, 2x splinter cannons
5 Warriors - 1 blaster, venom, 2x splinter cannons
5 Warriors - 1 blaster, venom, 2x splinter cannons
Fast Attack
Razorwing - 2 dark lances, 4 monoscythe missiles
Razorwing - 2 dark lances, 4 monoscythe missiles
Heavy Support
Ravager - 3 dark lances
Ravager - 3 dark lances
Ravager - 3 dark lances
Fortification
Aegis Defense Line, comms relay
So dropped he night shields on the Ravagers, but figure they're equally as safe as they are behind an Aegis. Had to drop the 3rd razorwing in order to add the second WebBlasterCon (I'm making this a thing), and to upgrade the trueborn venom to a raider to squeeze him in it.
Now I've got 2 perfect deep striking boats, each with 5 S8 AP2 lances, plus haywire grenades for that rare but possibly necessary charge to take the final HP from a vehicle. Comms relay on the aegis to help with reserves, which will also make sure my flyers come in turn 2 and give me some sky presence.
Aegis gives my venoms and foot warriors some protection up to the edge of my deployment zone, and can easily keep a few objectives behind this thing to get my obsec warriors a 2+ cover save when going to ground on them, leaving the venoms free to roam and grab erstwhile un-contested objectives.
I feel like this list gives me a lot more tactical fexibility than the other list, and the only thing that I really am missing is the 3rd flyer - but the addition of a second non-scatter DS threat, and the reserve manipulation, I think will more than make up for the loss of 2 skyfire lances.
Thoughts?
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Post by Joelercoaster on Mar 30, 2015 14:29:54 GMT -6
Ramp over to the Dark City and look up Mushkilla's new list... at 1250 it's (currently) 2 Haemy's, 2 units of Grotesques, and 4 Taloi (2 units). Taloi on the board, 2 units in reserves. He's 4-0 in his games so far, vs GK (with army-wide Force), Serpent Spam, Knights, and... something else that got backhanded by him.
Basically he's pro at playing the mission, knowing how his army works, objective placement like a champ to set himself up, and in general being a boss.
It's kind of the Lictor Shame of the DE world - 4 slow-moving, CC-only units, and he's beating down the current top-tier army builds. Because Dark Eldar.
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Post by Nick P on Mar 30, 2015 14:40:07 GMT -6
Ramp over to the Dark City and look up Mushkilla's new list I've seen it, but 1250 is a totally different game than 1850, though there are some similarities here in terms of how to defeat the big 4 - small footprint units, reserving a lot, and using creative movement to achieve the primary objective of missions. But, when you add another 600 points of units, the coven list doesn't get exponentially better as do Nids, Knights, and Serpents. Plus, I refuse to play Coven lists, mainly because I'd have to invest another $300 in haemies, wracks, more grotesques, tali and chroni, when I can perform much the same strategy (small units, fast skimmers, reserves) with the true kin. |
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Post by Joelercoaster on Mar 30, 2015 16:30:34 GMT -6
I'm not promoting you switch to a Coven list by any means, but you could consider some of their formations more aggressively. After finding 1.8 Taloi (old ones, but still) in various bitz boxes, I'm wondering about the potential of a Corpsethief formation. Scout will go a long way toward making the unit hit earlier in the game, and bonus VP are bonus VP. It's a big points investment, but I'm hearing better and better things about it.
In terms of splinter-output, I worry that forced jinking will make your damage potential plummet. It's one of the big boons of the Splinter Boat raider squad... it's nearly 50% more expensive, but you get a bonus HP, and a much smaller penalty to jinking, which leads to a much, much more survivable craft. Plus the 10-man squads are more likely to make it to the end-game where Fearless objective holding starts to make a difference, especially on ObSec units.
Just depends, though. I'm toying with a lot of different things lately, mainly because I'm getting a little 'blah' with the same 3 units over and over. C'est la vie. Or something.
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Post by Nick P on Mar 30, 2015 17:06:04 GMT -6
Yes but its 5x units dishing out 12 splinter shots at 36" - a threat range of 48" - vs 3-4x units dishing out 10 shots at 24" (13 at 18"), for a 50% points increase. With the venoms ability to hang out behind the aegis in the second list too, the need to jink is severely undercut. Plus the 5+ invuln means that I will only be jinking if the likelihood of survival is high enough, ie vs a single shot or two, instead of vs lots of shots that won't be saved anyway.
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Post by jefferestinpeace on Mar 30, 2015 17:12:43 GMT -6
I like that idea. I might bring an Aegis for the Comms as well, as all a Bastion did was kill my Venomthrope.
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Post by Joelercoaster on Mar 30, 2015 20:51:56 GMT -6
The splinter boats have to be closer fo sho, but you also double your wound output for that increase.
There are a lot of considerations, but I'm not yet convinced that sticking 100% with he olde venom troops is the way to go all day every day.
Then again, I also wrote a list with wyches in it, so there that.
Also just realized that khymera cause fear. Game changer, no doubt.
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Post by Nick P on Mar 30, 2015 21:08:46 GMT -6
I love the idea of Kymera, and they're so cheap - I think a few units of 5-6 would be great little objective grabbers or distraction units. 50-60 points for 20-24 S4 attacks in combat, with fleet and beast movement? Not shabby. Opponent has to deal with it, or it'll just be a pain in the dick.
Is it competitive? Meh I doubt it, but then again neither are "lictors" or "spore mines"
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Post by Joelercoaster on Mar 31, 2015 7:01:19 GMT -6
Also that was sarcasm, but I do want to use them. They went down to a 5+ bit got a T and I buff, with a points drop. Just take a master or two for LD boost.
Also also, don't forget you can throw the haywire too. Bs 7 with a 2+ to glance any vehicle? Yes please. If a nasty transport is on its last leg you can drop in, disembark the archon, use him to glance open the box and use blasters to eat the heavily armed contents or pop another boat.
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