|
Post by jefferestinpeace on Nov 19, 2014 12:27:36 GMT -6
|
|
|
Post by jefferestinpeace on Nov 19, 2014 12:46:18 GMT -6
Skytyrant and its potentially 60 ablative wounds notwithstanding, if you give the Tyrant in the Hypertoxic node the Miasma Cannon, that motherfucker gets ID.
|
|
|
Post by Nick P on Nov 19, 2014 12:50:14 GMT -6
Holy shit man, so many winged things. I love it.
I am definitely going to have to grab 20 gargoyles. So awesome, to keep an 18" synapse flyrant alive forever? Easy decision.
I love the spore field too - it costs like 100 points, and forces your opponent to make some serious first turn decisions. Plus they come back to life when dead on a 4+. Definitely getting that as well.
Skytide is tough though - 4 flyrants, 3 crones, 6 harpies, 110 gargoyles minimum, and a mess of spores. We should field one of these in the apoc battle vs the smurfs.
|
|
|
Post by jefferestinpeace on Nov 19, 2014 13:05:50 GMT -6
Yeah, those "formation of formations" are silly. Do we even have that many Flyers? Or spore mines?
I have 30 gargoyles as it stands... GW really wants to push those out.
Also, Neural Node - lol. 3 Zoanthrope broods of 3 Zoans + Neurothrope = 675 + 205 for the mal is one silly freaking formation. Still, lotta Psychic dice.
Also, just imagine the creative pitfall GW would be in if they hadn't designed IB they way they did.
|
|
|
Post by Joelercoaster on Nov 19, 2014 13:50:22 GMT -6
I think the new Warlord Trait Table is, at least, far better than the current one. While you lose Lynchpin (a very solid ability) you don't have any downright terrible options, and a lot of them are, at least, a little bit useful. The worst, I think, is actually 6 - as getting FnP after you're wounded is just... kind of... "really?". Especially as it's so easy (generally) to focus-fire one of our big guys down, and other tables just give FnP stock.
A number of those formations are "meh" at best, and reusing the Skyblight is weak. So, so weak.
That said, the "Gargoyles are my meatshields" unit is AMAZING.
Okay, so sure you can't actually "fly", but gargoyles on their own are a very solid unit, so already something that most of us are fine taking. Requiring two broods seems rough, but you can run 20 at a fair cost and have a good shield, while going upward of 60 if you really want to make someone's day. +6" Synapse = Win. Period. And it brings new life to combat Tyrants, as I thought it might. You can jink if you want for the 4+ even on the ground, or you can just pass of the wounds to a gargoyle. No need to fly high, you're still looking at a turn 2 charge. So much good about this. Seriously. Not to mention that now gargoyles have an obvious Synapse anchor, instead of looking at Shrikes, who I actually hear a lot of good things about, but get really expensive if they're useful (looking at 50 ppm on a 5+ save guy).
The Spore Field - take it in every game. Every. Single. Game. You can probably roll a useful formation for about 100 points, and you have UNLIMITED SPORES. Of all types. Just... raining down to cause craziness. Infiltrate on them is pretty huge, I think. I mean, seriously, this one should just be a regular addition for most lists.
That force org... is... questionable.
Basically, yeah, just a swarm list. Although it does open up Gaunts as being a bit more viable, as the re-roll for any IB means they'll at least be doing what you want them to do most of the time, instead of doing something stupid half the time (after Ld). I'm not going to look at it and call it great (especially as you lose ObSec), but I think it makes a heavy swarm list more viable just from that. I would have preferred something to make Warriors more viable, giving us the Synapse to control the swarms instead, but... shrug.
|
|
|
Post by Joelercoaster on Nov 19, 2014 14:23:05 GMT -6
Addition:
I think the Hypertoxic Node actually has some legitimate value to boot.
Note that the Tyrant can be given Wings without issue, despite the picture. The Toxicrene is a decent MC for us, and insta-gib on a 5+ really adds some stranger-danger to the mix. 3 Venomthropes seems a bit superfluous, but it's a good way to really spread Shrouded through your entire army without eating your elites slots.
Back to the Tyrant, though - give the (Flying) Tyrant the poison grubs, and the Miasma Cannon, and you're floating around with 2 ID'ing templates. The points you are forced to spend on poison are pretty well made up for in an every-turn Miasma (that's actually pretty legit for what, 10 points?). And you basically get a bonesword for free (but not the whip's bonus... shrug).
I mean, it's not a bad formation. It's not a skyblight or spore field, and probably a bit under the SkyTyrant just due to point cost of all the models... but I could see this one actually being legit.
But not that psychic node thing. That's garbage. 725 points, 8 psy dice. Please.
|
|
|
Post by Nick P on Nov 19, 2014 16:55:32 GMT -6
God the descriptions on these things are SO BAD. Its laughable how GW doesn't understand their own freaking game, its almost like they do it on purpose: "the Hive Mind unleashes the hypertoxic node, adapted to counter SUPER HEAVY TANKS and FORTRESSES of the Imperium"...
|
|
|
Post by Nick P on Nov 19, 2014 17:03:24 GMT -6
So, the black library blurb said we get 12 formations - this is only 6. So we'll see what else we have in store moving forward, still hopeful for something that makes Warriors good, or that helps with tyrannocyte scatter, or that lets them come in on turn one like drop pods.
I'm already thinking a standard CaD, Sky Tyrant, and Spore Field. Easy choices, I know, but I'm so excited to use this (eventually) in the escalation league. I NEED GAMES
|
|
|
Post by jefferestinpeace on Nov 19, 2014 17:06:32 GMT -6
It's a really weird thing that they do with that shit. I understand abstraction in regards to translating fluff to rules (Rupture Cannon), but shit like that is super dumb. They should be embarrassed. Fuck, even in their White Dwarf challenge shit with the Tox, he got punked by a Helbrute, which is far from a Superheavy, which they then say should be taken on by the Haruspex, fluffed out to be an infantry mulcher.
SAME FUCKING TEAM GUYS. COME ON.
|
|
|
Post by jefferestinpeace on Nov 19, 2014 17:08:17 GMT -6
So, the black library blurb said we get 12 formations - this is only 6. So we'll see what else we have in store moving forward, still hopeful for something that makes Warriors good, or that helps with tyrannocyte scatter, or that lets them come in on turn one like drop pods. I'm already thinking a standard CaD, Sky Tyrant, and Spore Field. Easy choices, I know, but I'm so excited to use this (eventually) in the escalation league. I NEED GAMES Sorry buddy, we're getting 12 datasheets, not formations. Datasheets will include the rules for Toxicrene, Fuckingidiotceptor, new Zoans, Sporo, Tyranno, and Mukes. We're done on new rules with this. Hopefully the campaign will give us a couple more.
|
|
|
Post by Joelercoaster on Nov 19, 2014 18:21:01 GMT -6
The actual campaign book is slated to have 6 more dataslates. While some of these could in theory be the basic rules, those are already up for grabs on the GW website.
FOR FREE!!!!
So while the reprinted Skyblight shows that GW believes in green living (aka, recycling), expect at least a few new ones, of which probably another 2 will be solidly good.
And yeah, that "toxicrene mock-up" was a joke. It somehow managed to wipe an entire squad of terminators while only taking one wound, because apparently vanilla terminators are SO SUPER COMMON because 3++'s are stupid.
Now that the Haruspex can pod in, though, it's actually a decently versatile beastie. A handful of attacks (and some more on the charge) to deal with infantry (elite squads being more ideal due to low numbers), but S7 on the charge with armorbane is no joke vs tanks. If the Knight wasn't I4, we'd almost be in business.
IT'S ALMOST AS IF I4 D-STRENGTH WEAPONS ARE STUPID.
Almost.
That's what 3 broods of Hive Guard are for. Hilariously, probably point-for-point one of, if not the best, Knight-Hunters we have at our disposal.
|
|
|
Post by jefferestinpeace on Nov 19, 2014 18:42:41 GMT -6
I guarantee you there are no more new rules included in Shield of Baal. It specifically says 12 "Datasheets" which can be Formations, Dataslates, rules, etc. We have the six formations above and the six new units we just got. We're tapped right here sir. The other book is just fluff.
I disagree with Hive Guard being good Knight Hunters. In a brood of 3, 3 shots will hit, then 1 glance and 1 pen, if you're lucky. That's IF you get rear armor. Then there's the invuln save. And no way you're taking 3 broods of 3 to fill up that elite slot when there are Malanthropes and Venomthropes at your disposal. Even then, you're only putting out 9 hits and maybe 5 HP if they're all right behind Mr. Knight and he didn't shield right towards them. Better output, but for 465 pts and all your Elite slots? Probably not.
Haruspex just isn't worth its points compared to any other MC who can easily do what it can do with biomorphs. And you can also get shooting as well.
Best Knight hunter is the Flyrant and the Hierodule, but really Haywire flamers.
|
|
|
Post by Joelercoaster on Nov 19, 2014 20:55:32 GMT -6
I didn't say it was actually good, I just said it was one of the best tools we have at our disposal.
Knight is 13/13/12, yeah? So vs AV 13, you get 2 HP from a brood of Hive Guard (barring Shield, yes). Vs rear armor only, a Flyrant (who is maneuverable-ish enough to say sure) will get something like 1.8 HP (that's dual Devs... 1 dev and E-grubs is about the same, really).
Very similar output, except that the hive guard are 65 less points.
Zoanthropes, let's say a brood of 3... let's just assume you're piling warp dice on (it's such a random factor, given whatever else you "need" to cast), so you get enough successes that the enemy can't feasibly deny. So that leads to 2 S10 hits, which... without math, is something just shy of 2 HP, although with a better chance than any of getting a catastrophic effect. So these guys are actually more cost effective, but rely on a potentially nullifiable power and the lowest range (flamers aside).
A crone "should" get 1 HP from testiclids, before the shield.
Again, I'm not saying they're "good" per se... but realistically, 6 S8 shots for less than 200 points, even at BS3, is one of the best tools we have for it.
Also, same sort of thing with the Haruspex. In a vacuum, S7+armorbane attacks = mulch armor. Not much else does that as well these days. Tyrants can't take CC's, Tervigons are base S5 and expensive enough without Adrenals (but they poop gribblies, sooo...), Toxiface is only S5 vs armor. It'd be interesting to math out a fex vs spex againts armor... and I can't imagine, what with d3 HoW, the fex not being superior. But, it does have to be said that the spex is better vs elite infantry, where even a couple of extra attacks on the charge will generally mean "a death", which turns into a big deal. Also, its self-healing is potentially extremely helpful, along with its extra wound.
None of that is to say I'm about to start running 3 spex's in my lists. Ever. It's just taking a step back from all of the nerfbat bruises and looking at what we're left with.
Remember, someone just won a major tournament with Lictors.
PS - I think the Heirodule really is the simplest answer, because a Knight is, realistically (and actually) a super-heavy. So a bio-titan of our own is legitimately the best matchup. To this day I think it's ridiculous that Knights don't eat a Lord of War slot. Putting them in their own category is really unfair... it's easy to look at a Warhound and say "Oh, that's cool, I'll just bring my own LoW and we're even"... but Knights? Oh, no, they're "just a thing I can bring, brah" so I, at least, lose sight of the fact that an army needs a titan of its own before it seriously looks at going against another titan-armed foe (or, at least, Nids do for the most part).
|
|
dex
neophyte
STATUS
Posts: 739
|
Post by dex on Nov 20, 2014 10:26:11 GMT -6
I think a hyrodule is a great choice to back up a pod and deepstrike heavy army. You can get it a 2+ Cover in ruins pretty easily and with its Double run it can reliably be in assault range turn 2 along with your first pod wave.
|
|
|
Post by Nick P on Nov 20, 2014 12:18:49 GMT -6
Damnit, now I'm going to have to wrap my head around tyranid fortifications...since a comms relay is just really useful with a drop-heavy army. It just doesn't feel right!
I'll probably just end up making an aegis line out of dead gant bodies, so at least it makes sense. Just getting tons of cover from the bodies of their own fallen brood brothers, with some kinda synapse node as the comms link.
*sigh* I can guess I can make it fit the fluff...
|
|