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Post by Nick P on Apr 18, 2018 11:00:45 GMT -6
I went and looked at some of those Ynnari lists, Nick P , and I see what you mean. I didn't realize Ynnari Detachments kept their <Craftworld, Kabal, etc> but lost the specific Detachment and Army bonuses in exchange for Strength from Death. You do still have to take a Craftworld Detachment to access those Stratagems, but not a specific <Craftworld> one (Saim-Hann sounds like the culprit here). I guess I see people do crazy stuff like that and am impressed. I wouldn't have thought to do that, and it makes me want to try Ynnari! Good excuse to start scooping up Dark Eldar, too Remember that the Battle Brothers rule to supposedly address soup is in beta form. I suspect that loophole (or feature?) will be tightened up. You can be sure the rules guys are aware of it. It seems a little silly to let the Ynnari units keep their previous sub-Faction, from both a rules and fluff perspective. But it's not technically soup, right? They share a Faction Keyword besides just Aeldari. You take a Craftworld, Drukhari, and Ynnari Detachment in your Army, you get access to a ton of Stratagems and Relics. That seems awesome! And looking at it again, it doesn't seem like the ynarri characters get warlord traits or relics, and they HAVE to be your warlord, so that is also a trade off. Maybe I'm having the same kind of knee jerk reaction to the soup changes as others are to the deep strike and rule of 3 stuff, so I'll reserve judgement until I see how it plays out now, and try a dark eldar version of it for myself to see if its more balanced than it was in 7th edition when last I tried it.
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Post by daniel, why on Apr 18, 2018 13:31:54 GMT -6
doubleback What's the vertical charge rule, and how did you change it?
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doubleback
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Post by doubleback on Apr 18, 2018 14:12:26 GMT -6
First we both agreed that you can't be unable to charge someone on a platform due to positioning. I don't think that it makes sense, and it confers too much of an advantage to shooty armies. You can't convince me that a horde of Tyrannids can't scale up a platform and attack someone over the edge, just because a defender hasn't left them ample standing room. Secondly, when you do charge, you get the units that you could normally get up on your charge turn, but after the fight phase you can consolidate remaining troops up, space allowing as defenders are pushed back (basically, think of the rest of the attacking troops as in the process of climbing up while the defenders are occupied during the fight phase). You can't use them immediately, but they get up there without having to move/advance/charge next turn. This seemed like a fair trade off, giving troops on the heights an advantage of space without making them unassailable. Eric formerly Eric, does this sound about right?
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Post by Eric formerly Eric on Apr 18, 2018 16:41:05 GMT -6
Yep yep. Basically we were using that shadow war terrain thats 5" tall. My biggest issue with that terrain is that my pile in/consolidation move is way too small (3") to maje it up onto the terrain. For instance, i roll a 9" inch charge and 4 of my genestealers make it up the terrain and within 1". But that means that the rest of my brood is a full 5" below on the ground and can't maje it up as long as they are locked in combat.
The other issue is that the BRB FAQ says that if you can't fit the model on the playform, you fail the charge. That means that you could line the edges of a raised platform with guardsmen and my genestealers could never charge them because there's not enough room for them to stand. I know it's not realistic, but it's kinda game breaking against assault armies.
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doubleback
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Post by doubleback on Apr 18, 2018 16:51:04 GMT -6
Basically, when occupying the high ground use common sense and don't be a dick.
Also no pushing.
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cj
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Post by cj on Apr 19, 2018 7:49:50 GMT -6
This combat on levels came up at adepticon. The opponent pointed out why he was moving his units the way he was specifically to stop my charge. I couldn't be mad at him because he even acknowledged the rule is dumb and needs to be changed. The other rule along that line that is stupid is large models not being able to fit on a ledge and be able to swing. It's ridiculous a 20" tall walking robot wouldn't be able to swing at somebody on the second floor of a building, but I imagine most friendly games will just correct for these shenanigans.
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Post by Joelercoaster on Apr 19, 2018 7:54:20 GMT -6
It's a meme on tyranid boards - fire warriors our guardsmen will climb up three steps to be immune to the charging carnifex.
At the very least I think measuring from the model, rather than base, would give some semblance of middle ground. If my Trygon is 7" tall, how can it not reach the squad 3" off the ground?
Def a need for a better faq here
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Post by Eric formerly Eric on Apr 19, 2018 8:03:36 GMT -6
It's why I like to use specific terrain pieces at the dojo. 3" tall levels. Or terrain that is "impassable".
I learned the trygon lesson the hard way in a dojo tournament when a tau player perched all his models on top of 3-level ruins.
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Post by Nick P on Apr 19, 2018 8:43:25 GMT -6
It's why I like to use specific terrain pieces at the dojo. 3" tall levels. Or terrain that is "impassable". I learned the trygon lesson the hard way in a dojo tournament when a tau player perched all his models on top of 3-level ruins. God damned TAU PLAYERS
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doubleback
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Post by doubleback on Apr 19, 2018 8:53:09 GMT -6
To play devil's advocate here though, you could make the same argument that line of sight unfairly benefits melee armies. Logically if you are hiding in a brick building and I am firing a giant laser at you, the fact that I can't see you behind that wall is not going to save you when that wall is vaporized.
Now in practice I completely agree with the line of sight rule. They can still be hit if you brought something that does not require line of sight, and they can't do much offensively while they are stuck back there. it works because A) it does not completely stop shooting and B) it offers melee something to balance out shooty armies taking high ground. C) because I play orks and cover is the difference between getting 20 boyz into melee and getting 5 boyz into melee.
I generally think that everything should have some kind of corresponding advantage/disadvantage. Melee armies can use terrain for cover as they advance, shooty armies can use terrain to make getting into melee more difficult. I also always play that you can hit whatever you can reasonably reach. If you can shoot me because I am taller than the ruin, then I can hit anything I can reach in those ruins. If being tall has a draw back then it should have a corresponding advantage. It all comes down to common sense and fairness. This, and general laziness is why I do not play anything outside of casual games with people I know to be reasonable. 10 min of watching Dan's game showed me that I would have to be escorted off the premises by security after I bitch slapped some shirtless guy in camo paint for telling me I couldn't climb up a rock.
A flying monster can attack any height regardless of space...because physics.
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Post by daniel, why on Apr 19, 2018 11:27:04 GMT -6
Hunh, a very interesting counter-point, doubleback. I also think it should be impossible for a unit to be completely immune to charges, but I never thought about the fairness of a unit being untargetable by shooting due to positioning compared to a unit being unassailable due to positioning. That one FAQ ruling is crazy. I must have been stated that way to keep the "advanced" rules for ruins consistent. The rules for terrain, in general, are not great but that's a whole different topic. I remember when 8th first dropped, in a White Dwarf battle report, the dudes had an imperial knight charge a unit of hellblasters on top of some sector mechanicus terrain and they just decided it couldn't use its stomp attack, only its chainsword, because that made sense. I'm inclined to agree. I fully endorse what you guys decided. Genestealers definitely can climb up terrain, and basically counting the pile-in and consolidate as sufficient to scale up makes a lot of sense.
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Post by Eric formerly Eric on Apr 19, 2018 11:28:06 GMT -6
Yes, terrain should help deter charges. And it already does. My genestealers have to climb the full length of the terrain piece to get into charge range. You are able to put much more space between your ranged dudes and my melee squad. This gets even more exacerbated with deep striking. If your dudes are 5" high and I ds my stealers 9" away horizontally, that's a 14" charge.
My issue is when it's literally impossible to charge, meaning that even if i can somehow make that massive charge distance, i am still not allowed to engage you in combat. Ie. The faq rule about platform. I get that its realistic, but that' s what i consider game breaking. Unit coherency accounts for being on multiple levels of a building. Why can't combat do the same.
Its like in Elder scrolls Oblivion when I discovered that I could jump up to a ledge in the Arena and none of the CPU characters could hit me. Game breaking.
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Post by Eric formerly Eric on Apr 19, 2018 11:39:08 GMT -6
I appreciate your point, doubleback but i think in reality, thats either situational, trivial or avoidable. I mean, unit targeting goes both ways. If your unit can't see mine, then I can't see yours. With shooting units, it's kinda about who blinks first and exposes themselves. If its a melee unit, then they literally can't do anything either until they get into your face. If it's an objective camper, then you have to force it off but they also aren't doing anything all game. You might be right, and melee infantry armies just aren't viable without extensive ranged support. But i feel like facing a horde of genestealers or khorne berzerkers is like one of the most essential warhammery game experiences.
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doubleback
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Post by doubleback on Apr 19, 2018 13:11:34 GMT -6
Yes, terrain should help deter charges. And it already does. My genestealers have to climb the full length of the terrain piece to get into charge range. You are able to put much more space between your ranged dudes and my melee squad. This gets even more exacerbated with deep striking. If your dudes are 5" high and I ds my stealers 9" away horizontally, that's a 14" charge. My issue is when it's literally impossible to charge, meaning that even if i can somehow make that massive charge distance, i am still not allowed to engage you in combat. Ie. The faq rule about platform. I get that its realistic, but that' s what i consider game breaking. Unit coherency accounts for being on multiple levels of a building. Why can't combat do the same. Its like in Elder scrolls Oblivion when I discovered that I could jump up to a ledge in the Arena and none of the CPU characters could hit me. Game breaking. Hahaha holy shit I DID that in oblivion, and in the last one too.
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doubleback
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Post by doubleback on Apr 19, 2018 13:21:08 GMT -6
I appreciate your point, doubleback but i think in reality, thats either situational, trivial or avoidable. I mean, unit targeting goes both ways. If your unit can't see mine, then I can't see yours. With shooting units, it's kinda about who blinks first and exposes themselves. If its a melee unit, then they literally can't do anything either until they get into your face. If it's an objective camper, then you have to force it off but they also aren't doing anything all game. You might be right, and melee infantry armies just aren't viable without extensive ranged support. But i feel like facing a horde of genestealers or khorne berzerkers is like one of the most essential warhammery game experiences. I think Melee armies are totally viable, so if that was how my statement came across, I did a poor job. I promise you however the codex looks, my Ork army will have a huge melee component. My point is that terrain, which is in my opinion an important and fun part of the game, delivers benefits and challenges to both shooty and choppy armies, as long as there are no rules that make something unassailable. Line of sight does not make a unit invincible against shooting, and height should not allow the opposite. The good news is, this current ruling is so exploitable that I cannot imagine it will last past the next tournament. My guess is no one really thought about the ramifications of it before printing it. It's not like this is the first time GW has had to walk back something that made no sense. That said, viability aside, I am not a fan of any one note army. I think fire support is important for a melee army, and vice versa.
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