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Post by Eric formerly Eric on Sept 19, 2017 23:09:15 GMT -6
Alright, so i've been playing a few games with marines and have found plenty of awesome units/characters.
However, i found several that im really not sure how to use, and im sure its been the same way for yall.
Librarian: besides Smite, the powers all seem super situational. Veil of time can definitely on offense and defence, but what about the others?
Apothecary: most our infantry are 1-2 wounds, so healing D3 rarely seems necessary, but the revive only works on 4+.
Landspeeder: so its super fast and carries heavy weapons. But then it gets -1 to hit. I feel like its just a worse version of a bike squad.
Heavy Support Tanks: not that they are bad, but they seem to have lost lots of flavor since they no longer have any special rules. Which ones do people like?
Any other units that people cant figure out?
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Post by rogerspacem on Sept 20, 2017 3:47:09 GMT -6
Librarians: they are actually pretty good, but you keep one in there for that situation. I know for chaos you take a Libby to either counter invulnerable saves or cast Warp time for extra movement. I don't recall space marines powers but for dark angels being able to hit a enemy unit with a minus 1 to hit is nothing to squeeze at.
Apoc:falls into a strange grey area for me. I personally don't feel think they are worth it, but a common use us to bring back heavy weapons in the lines. It's not prefect but if it forces your opponent to dedicate more firepower to that squad then he is doing something right.
Speeders: I like and hate, they make a great mobile gun boat... But for 4 speeders with missile launchers and heavy bolted clocks out to 510 points. Which for 3 squads of Devs. Can fire more missiles. I haven't tried double heavy flamers and have them run up to flame down some units. Mind you they are able to advance a crazy distance (especially if you bring 3 or more in a unit). Otherwise they can get shot down easily compared to a rhino but better than most other units.
My god tanks:
predators are actually pretty dang boss in this game almost every option is good.
Vindicators... I don't know how to use. Sure they are tough 8 and has a d3 shot (or d6) against most targets, but I think predators outshine this guy. I think if I had 3 of them then I think they might better due to the strag. for them, but I only have the one. Still you use them against vehicles or elite units I think they cost around 180 which isn't bad.
Whirlwinds: with the row boat they are death incarnate, without him, I think they are a bunch of push overs. Granted only one game with 3 of them but nothing special came out of it. Overall you hide them in your back line with a captain to at least have them hit better. Not sure what option is better but I'm leaning towards the 2d3 shots for extra strength, ap and damage. The 2d6 is great for hordes but not so much against marines.
I can't remember the other tanks (unless you mean rhinos than that's another topic all in of itself).
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Post by Eric formerly Eric on Sept 20, 2017 6:39:06 GMT -6
Good feedback, roger. Yeah i always love the idea of libbys but astartes powers are weird. Theres a smite alternate that does one mortal wound in a straight line, theres a few anti-psyker, and null zone, which is an invuln-negating nova. Excellent but only models within 6" and it takes an 8 to cast.
Maybe flamer speeders would work best, cause they autohit and speeders can get within range T2.
So i have had some weird results with tanks. Agreed with your assessment. With a whirlwind, im averaging like 4 shots, of which maybe 1 or 2 get through armor saves. I guess its only 100 points.
Marines also have the hunter and stalker, which dont seem to be good. I think the stalker basically has a single nearly auto-hitting lascannon.
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Post by rogerspacem on Sept 20, 2017 11:26:26 GMT -6
Im unfamiliar with hunter and stalker, but whirl wind is the same price as a twin assault cannon razor back... But at that point... Why not take the razor back?
To be fair dark angels can be way more defense than space marines. The dark shroud and azrael helps to protect my tanks. I take it your tanks only do so well because they blow up too soon?
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Post by Eric formerly Eric on Sept 20, 2017 11:33:39 GMT -6
Exactly. Razorbacks are so cheap and versatile that i cant find a purpose for the heavies. Stashing a whirlwind in the corner would be nice since it ignores LOS, but it didnt do much when i used it.
I also have a sicaran, but it seems overprices. 260 points with H bolter sponsons and it is only T7 14W. It easily gets wrecked when i use it.
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Post by rogerspacem on Sept 20, 2017 11:42:43 GMT -6
Exactly. Razorbacks are so cheap and versatile that i cant find a purpose for the heavies. Stashing a whirlwind in the corner would be nice since it ignores LOS, but it didnt do much when i used it. I also have a sicaran, but it seems overprices. 260 points with H bolter sponsons and it is only T7 14W. It easily gets wrecked when i use it. Really a sicaran? Last I remember they usually perform pretty well, but maybe I saw them on their good days. Not sure what to say about it. Haven't face it in person nor have I fielded one (I believe dark angels can't use them but maybe I'm wrong.) but yeah I think whirlwinds are worth it if you have it with a space marine lieutenant and captain. It's just questionable because a razor back performs just as well. I think what we are failing to see is the no line of sight. If we hide them better I think that's where they'll shine. |
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Post by Eric formerly Eric on Sept 20, 2017 12:55:11 GMT -6
Good point. I may have to test it again tonight.
So the sicaran: scary 8-shot autocannon and 3 heavy bolters. So thats a lot of output. But the actual hull/chassis is basically a razorback with 4 extra wounds. And it costs 260 points. That might still be worth it, but that 260 (290 with lascannons instead) always stands out to me as super expensive.
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Post by rogerspacem on Sept 20, 2017 13:08:13 GMT -6
Good point. I may have to test it again tonight. So the sicaran: scary 8-shot autocannon and 3 heavy bolters. So thats a lot of output. But the actual hull/chassis is basically a razorback with 4 extra wounds. And it costs 260 points. That might still be worth it, but that 260 (290 with lascannons instead) always stands out to me as super expensive. Hmm any other extra features? Also have you tried pairing him with a tech marine to keep him kicking a little longer? One more thing you run ultramarines correct? |
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Post by Eric formerly Eric on Sept 20, 2017 14:34:40 GMT -6
The autocannon doesnt get -1 to hit from flyers. Not +1. Just negates the -1 from hard to hit. Which is nice, and i just havent played against flyers yet.
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Post by rogerspacem on Sept 20, 2017 15:18:37 GMT -6
Hmm that's it huh. For the lascannon option I take it is only 4 shots as well?
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Post by Eric formerly Eric on Sept 20, 2017 15:26:22 GMT -6
Hmm that's it huh. For the lascannon option I take it is only 4 shots as well? Lascannons replace the h bolter sponsons. So 2 lascannon shots instead of 6 s5 ap1 shots. It just seems like a lot of points on T7. If it was T8, it would be excellent. |
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Post by Eric formerly Eric on Sept 20, 2017 15:27:21 GMT -6
Ive been playing around with lots of tanks though and i feel like infantry are generally a better points investment
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Post by rogerspacem on Sept 20, 2017 16:08:05 GMT -6
Well it's more like everything is costed somewhat correctly. Every unit I went through (in dark angels) seems like another unit can do it's job (in terms of damage) it just boils down to utility and endurance (might not be the correct word to use, but bare with me) . Thing is infantry can easily be kitted to what you need to deliver a good alpha, or beta, punch better than most vehicles/monsters especially true for space marines. I'm terms of endurance, yeah a bolter can kill them, so can a lascannon, but the damage amongst the two weapons profile at best kills a single model in a infantry unit (assuming one shot is fired). While a bolter shot is very unlikely to kill a vehicle, a lascannon can cripple a vehicle (if two shots are fired then possibly kill it out right). Crippling kills your mobility thus lowering it's utility to your army (unless it's already standing on an objective or has some kind of aoe effect.) so a vehicle uses quickly dwindles. It does help for Infantry that they can also hide better than vehicles and even ride them (seeing vehicles stick out due to their size.) however you shouldn't be too worked up on infantry being better than vehicles unless you planning to play competitive. Still most lists in the competitive matches still take vehicles, but either spam their transports, hide their No Line of Sight needed vehicles, or just die to protect their heavy infantry inside. It's just how you plan to use them.
In short if you plan on using tanks in this edition and think you are going second then you should hide them as best as possible. It's better to take a minus one to hit when you move them to position than having it crippled and not do much else. If you are going first or second than give them support. As space marines we have a lot of supportive auras to make every unit so much better, throw a tech marine in there and see how your opponent will struggle to strip the last few wounds. At least that's how I see it. Not sure if this helps how to use tanks, but it's my opinion on the matter.
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