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Post by Nick P on Jun 17, 2017 7:50:02 GMT -6
So the dimachaeron rules leaked....and I'm bringing one today. 200 points, 6 S10 attacks in CC. Looks like I found my anti armor unit!
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Post by Eric formerly Eric on Jun 17, 2017 20:55:34 GMT -6
Thoughts: nids are fucking amazing. They will struggle against real super heavies. BUT I have none of those. I think you wanna try at least 2 trygon/hormi combos to guarantee a couple charges in case luck isn't on your side. The broodlord is great, but completely ineffective with Swarmlord and trygon tunnels. Hive guard and exocrine are essential backfield shooters. In your current setup, Termagants felt unnecessary. I think you flip the BroodLord and termis for another trygon, hormis, and shooty warriors.
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Post by Nick P on Jun 18, 2017 7:53:44 GMT -6
I absolutely agree - broodlord ended up babysitting the artillery units all game- and that can be done better by a min sized squad of warriors.
I think dropping the termagants even for another unit of genestealers would be great - hormagaunts are fine but they don't do any damage, the main utility is the 6" pile in to tie up units. Maybe doing 2 units of 20 instead will be just as useful in that regard but cheaper points wise. And yeah another trygon is key, can probably drop the dimachaeron for that. He is so good at killing vehicles, but the trygon and hormagaunts turn 1 charge is just better.
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Post by Nick P on Jun 19, 2017 7:45:33 GMT -6
So here's a more detailed breakdown of what I took away from my couple Nid games on saturday: - Alpha strike close combat is siiiiiiiick, like Monster Energy + tribal tat on your bicep + these sick. The trygon prime did some serious damage in both games, as did the genestealer squad with its double-move thanks to the swarmlord's ability. Trygon also died in both games, in the first game he was punched to death by a dreadnought after taking him down to 1 wound and killing the enemy warlord in 2 rounds of combat, and in the second game he died to a butt load of relic blade attacks from some vanguard vets with their stupid storm shields. But he managed to get his points back both times, and his ability to bring a swarm of 30 hormagaunts that don't do much but that make your opponent deal with them is invaluable in my opinion. Genestealers wreck infantry, period - I might be taking a second unit of 16 to some more test games.
- Synapse is no longer anything to worry about all that much. Synapse used to be a huge burden, because units would literally eat themselves if they weren't within 12" of a leader - no more! While yes, having synapse so you can choose your targets for combat/shooting is helpful, its no longer necessary. When your combat units pop up turn 1 9" from the unit they wanted to attack anyway, its kinda like...who cares if they're in synapse or not. I will say that having a babysitter for the likes of hive guard and exocrines and tyrannofexes is a good idea, since there were times in my games where I wanted to shoot down some tank or whatever but it was just further away than a different unit, so I couldn't. It was never game-critical, but it could be down the road.
- Artillery is dope, more so than I thought. I only brought 3 hive guard and 1 exocrine, and going in it felt like that wasn't enough anti-armor for the new edition, with everything having so many wounds now. But the debilitating effect on vehicles for being wounded is so key - even if you can't kill a tank in 1 turn (which, even with just those 2 units, I was able to do anyway) you can make it hit you on 5s, or only move 6", or whatever. And that kind of diminishing return for your opponent has a value all its own in the new edition.
- Flyers are not the bees knees. -1 to hit is not all that great, and with the new edition pushing for number of bodies in most armies, and with the new To Wound chart (which I forgot to my detriment several times), even fleshborers can bring down something like a storm raven on 5s. FIVES. Let that sink in. It feels like flyers as transports are good for getting your units across the board for a turn 2 charge, but I wouldn't count on a flying gun ship sticking around for long.
- Swarmlord is either OKAY or I wasn't using him right. His ability to Hive Command a unit to move twice and still charge is huge, and I think makes his 300 point cost worth it as far as his ability to be a force multiplier for the army along with his 12" synapse range. BUT I have yet to actually get him to do any of the heavy lifting - he died to a LOT of shooting in turn 3 of my game with Eric, and he never hit combat in my first game and just was a very expensive synaptic lynchpin. I'll keep trying to make him more effective, maybe after the genestealers get to combat on turn 1 I start using the Hive Command ability on himself to get him into combat turn 2? Guess I hadn't thought of that.
- Dimachaeron is super fun to use, but is lacking*. He has 6 attacks at either S7 AP-2 Damage 1 (but rending vs infantry and doing d3 on a 6), or S10 AP-3 D3 damgae (but rending vs vehicles, doing d6 damage on a 6), and a 12" move unlike last edition - but, because he doesn't have the ability to get into combat turn 1 like half the army, he felt lacking. He didn't hit the enemy lines until turn 2, which somehow felt late - which I think is more a commentary on the overall meta for 8th edition now, which is fast hard hitting alpha strikes wherever possible. I love the model I converted for him, and will use him still in anything above 2000 points, but I think for 2000 and under sticking with the basics of warriors, genestealers, hormagaunts, trygons, etc. is the way to go.
- 1500 points is small, 2000 is about average, and higher points are 100% doable. My 1500 point game with Alex lasted maybe an hour - it was super quick, so much stuff died right away, we ended up calling it after 2 turns. My 2000 point game with Eric last about 2 hours, maybe a little more, but would have been 90-120 minutes flat if we didn't have to look stuff up. 2000 points feels more like 1500 did last edition - balanced lists with some flexibility, but not bloated. I have a feeling 2500 points is going to be the new tournament standard, which should feel closer to 1850 from last edition - so I look forward to getting some games in at that level to see how they feel. In my list writing, it has the same effect that 1850 had - it still usually means your list is balanced and flexibly, but it gives you just enough clearance to bring 1 or 2 fun units in addition to the balanced units.
With that I'm working on a new 2000 point list - that takes advantage of more alpha strike combat, removes some of the units that didn't play to their potential (broodlord, termagants), and allows me to use some units I haven't played with since probably 4th edition:
Battalion Detachment - 2000 points
Swarmlord Warrior Prime - deathspitter, bone swords, adrenal glands
3 Hive guard - impaler cannons
16 genestealers - rending claws 23 hormagaunts - adrenal glands 23 hormagaunts - adrenal glands 6 warriors - scything talons, rending claws, adrenal glands
6 raveners - deathspitters, rending claws
exocrine - bio-plasmic cannon trygon prime - adrenal glands trygon prime - adrenal glands
The list gives me 5 units to go in reserves (2 trygons, 2 hormagaunts, raveners). It keeps the trygon damage output high with the prime getting all 6 attacks with scything talons instead of having to use the tail weapon, and with doubling the shooting effectiveness by getting 12 shots instead of 6 at S5 Ap0 D1, plus lets me expand my synapse web into the backfield where it was lacking in my first 2 games.
It lets me get a warrior-esque statline into the enemy on turn 1 with the raveners as well, to help break up infantry gun lines along with the genestealers turn 1 charge from using Swarmy's hive command ability. And it lets me tie up 2-4 units with hormagaunts depending on spacing thanks to their 6" pile in and consolidate move.
It keeps my artillery base in the form of hive guard and the exocrine, but also gives me a cheaper synapse baby sitter in the warrior prime, that also gets to do something in the shooting phase where the broodlord never did.
Now I just need to find a lone warrior model to upgrade to a prie for the list, and I'll be golden.
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Post by Eric formerly Eric on Jun 19, 2017 11:48:49 GMT -6
I like it. I'd add that your warriors didn't do a whole lot except add synapse. So it might be worth splitting that one unit in half.
I gotta say I'm disappointed in how easy it was to down my stormraven. It has some crazy firepower and I could've swung a bit wider to avoid some of your units but getting gunned down by Termagants is pretty pathetic. Strength 4 wounding T6/7 on fives really changes the meta. On the one hand, they gave rhinos 10 wounds. On the other, my 300 point gunship barely is harder than a rhino.
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Post by Eric formerly Eric on Jun 19, 2017 11:50:50 GMT -6
Also, if you have the points, giving a cannon to the prime would let him shoot a range as well. But that's definitely the best way to give synapse to your artillery
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Post by Nick P on Jun 19, 2017 13:12:32 GMT -6
Also, if you have the points, giving a cannon to the prime would let him shoot a range as well. But that's definitely the best way to give synapse to your artillery Love the idea of splitting the warriors - the main reason I didn't in our game was because I still think 3 warriors die too easy, and also don't put out that much damage. I also don't think I necessarily need them for synapse if I'm going to have a prime with a cannon (venom cannon maybe) babysit the artillery. I might even trade them out for shrikes, so they can hop into combat more quickly as well - they're roughly the same price, only a couple points difference, for the same stat line but with 12" move instead of 6" move. If I drop the deathspitters on the raveners, keeping the devourers, I can switch the warriors to shrikes, and give the warrior prime a venom cannon. That might be a better way to go as far as splitting the army into "super mobile close combat alpha strike" and "sit back and shoot" sections.
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Post by Joelercoaster on Jun 20, 2017 14:11:08 GMT -6
Did I misread? I thought the prime could only take the basic weaponry (devourer/deathspitters/spinefists). Would love to be wrong on that, though - a couple of VC's and some supporting Deathspitters at BS3+ isn't that terribad for a shooty-support unit.
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Post by Nick P on Jun 20, 2017 14:53:59 GMT -6
No you're right I'm wrong - deathspitter it is then.
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Post by Eric formerly Eric on Jun 20, 2017 16:15:36 GMT -6
Oh my bad. That was my recommendation
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Post by Joelercoaster on Jun 21, 2017 14:17:28 GMT -6
Even so, BS3+ DS is a decent weapon, and I think the Prime is mostly a charge-deterrent for the warriors/nearby shooty beasts.
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Post by Nick P on Jul 26, 2017 7:14:19 GMT -6
NEWEST VERSION OF MY LIST
This is the list I was planning on bringing to the tournament, but I have to take my daughter to physical therapy so had to drop out. Based on the games I've had, this seems like the best balance between a solid gun line of S7, S8 shooting, and an alpha strike CC list with trygons, hormies, and genestealers. Swarmlord is here to Hive Commander himself into the enemy lines turn 1, and the malanthrope is the perfect backfield synapse/support unit for the gunline.
Its also down to 10 drops, which is key for getting first turn, as what I've seen through the first 2-3 ETC tournaments is an average of 13-15 drops for competitive lists, and now with Flyer Spam being an auto-lose, those types of minimal drop lists will go to the wayside.
Spearhead Detachment:
HQ Malanthrope - 90 Swarmlord -catalyst, onslaught, smite - 300
Elite 3 Hive Guard - 144
Troops 30 Hormagaunts, adrenal glands - 180 6 Warriors, adrenal glands, rending claws, flesh hooks - 150
Heavy Exocrine - 228 Trygon, adrenal glands, pincer tail - 180 Trygon, adrenal glands, toxic spike - 180
Supreme Command Detachment:
HQ Magus - might from beyond, smite - 73 Magus - mind control, smite - 73 Patriarch - mass hypnosis, smite, familiar - 162
Elite 16 Purestrain Genestealers - 240
Gives me 4 smites a turn to dish out mortal wounds, gives me a decent gun line in the form of malanthrope + hive guard + exocrine, and if they're in a ruin they'll be both -1 to hit and +1 to save which is key. Swarmlord is the warlord, and he'll get the 6+ FNP warlord trait - which stacks with Catalyst thanks to the new FAQ, meaning if he gets catalyst on himself he'll have his 5+ invuln, plus a 5+ FNP, plus a 6+ FNP on every point of damage that comes through. Plus -1 to hit from the mally who he deploys with just in case I don't get the first turn.
On turn 1, my alpha (or beta) strike hits - 16 genestealers + patriarch arrive via cult ambush, then both trygons and the hormies and warriors arrive as well. 66% chance to get the GSC units 12", 50% chance to get them 9" away, and 33% chance to get a move or advance out of them in addition for an all but guaranteed charge. Add to that the swarmlord hive commandering himself to move 18" up the board and within charge range to slam into the enemy lines.
Should be a fun list, but definitely tries to rely on going first. The stuff I deploy can be focused down relatively easily - I can expect to lose swarmy in turn 1 if I don't go first (unless he's behind line of sight blocking terrain) in about half my games I figure.
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Post by Eric formerly Eric on Jul 26, 2017 15:24:17 GMT -6
I like it. Are you using the swarmlord to move himself up T1? I'm taking a fairly similar list, so I'll let you know how it does this weekend.
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Post by Nick P on Jul 27, 2017 6:37:15 GMT -6
Yup that's the idea! Get the swarmlord within turn 1 charge range along side the 2 trygons, swarm of hormies, cc warriors, and the patriarch + purestrains. 7 turn 1 charges, with adrenal glands and a reroll should be able to make at least 5 of them.
Let me know how it goes man!
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Post by Eric formerly Eric on Jul 27, 2017 8:22:01 GMT -6
I will. I actually am deepstriking some close range shooting, so ill see how that goes. Have you used any lictors? I think they could be a decent distraction unit for things like devastator squads or tanks
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