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Post by Eric formerly Eric on May 11, 2017 8:45:01 GMT -6
Ok, I realize one of the biggest hype areas in 8th is the elimination of USRs and having all the rules on each unit's datasheet. The common justification I've seen is that this will be a time-saver. I honestly don't get that. I think having USRs, as well as common psychic and warlord tables, was one of the easiest things that saved me time in this game. Having common rules like rend, furious charge, etc. that are available to everyone in one rulebook was incredibly simple to memorize and find in the BRB. There was even a nice reference sheet online that listed them. When I set up games and would go over my list, it was super easy to say "these guys have bolters with poison" or "this dude has furious charge, Rending, and fleet". Looking at the datasheet that GW put out today, I feel like it will take forever to figure out what the fuck my opponent's units do. It looks like everyone will have different little tweaks and special rules, and you still have to look up the datasheet for each unit, which seems pretty time consuming. For example, the tsons aspiring sorcerer has a different version of the smite power. As an opponent, I feel like I'll be constantly pausing the game to look at datasheets cause of all the individualized tweaks like that. Everybody is celebrating this change, so I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.
And to clarify, I definitely support having the full army in one book. I also totally support cutting down on the sheer amount of special rules. I'm just talking about having USRs that apply to everyone too.
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Post by Nick P on May 11, 2017 9:51:17 GMT -6
You still will have common rules that various armies will share, and that all units in given armies will share (check out the article today on Datasheets - all thousand sons units have the All Is Dust rule). The difference is that they're right smack in front of your face like on battlescribe, rather than in an index of a giant rulebook.
The whole point isn't to make every unit unique and thereby artificially inflate the number of "USRs" in the game - the point is to consolidate them to each datasheet, so you only have to bring a 12 page print out of the rules and a handful of data sheets to a game in order to have literally every rule you need, vs a rulebook and a codex and a supplement and a campaign book and a FW book etc.
You'll still see a LOT of common elements among units - like giving them the ability to ignore the -1 BS when moving with heavy weapons (relentless), or getting +1 save in cover (stealth) - they're just going to be flavored for the faction in question in the text of their datasheet.
Everyone who shares your opinion on USRs is freaking out, but every single edition GW has altered the USRs in the game in drastic ways that require the entire community to re-learn what they mean and how the interact with the larger rules of the game and specific armies. This is no different from that - the special rules on each units datasheet might have a name like "All is dust" or whatever, but what the rule *means* will still be familiar (in this case, relentless).
One game against an army of thousand sons will have their "USRs" cemented in your brain, same as with any other army you will face. Every edition change is a learning curve to some degree, but I think this edition change will actually be easier to learn than we anticipate, thanks to them leaking pieces of info every day. By the time the edition comes out, we'll have basically been discussing the rules for over a month.
I mean hell, we already have enough to play test (to some degree...not knowing the special rules for Astartes hampers it slightly) skirmishes of tacticals and dreadnoughts vs thousand sons using all phases of the game. We're building our understanding of the game piece by piece every day - when it actually drops, you'll be better equipped than you might think to play a full game quickly.
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Post by mcsardo on May 11, 2017 9:52:37 GMT -6
They are keeping faction specific special rules though. I think that while good in theory, USRs had just gotten too unwieldly and self-referential.
For example:
Zealot is a USR that grants several other USRS such as: Fearless and Hatred, which themselves have their own rules.
I think part of it was just trying to clean up USRs that refer to other USRs which constituted about 30 pages in the rule book. Having them all on the sheet with just the explanation and not "x confers y and invalidates z for one turn" which causes lots of cross referencing.
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Post by Joelercoaster on May 11, 2017 12:39:34 GMT -6
You'll still see a LOT of common elements among units - like giving them the ability to ignore the -1 BS when moving with heavy weapons (relentless), or getting +1 save in cover (stealth) - they're just going to be flavored for the faction in question in the text of their datasheet. In fairness, I think this is the inherent problem. While I absolutely love the idea of condensed rules, quick reference (as you say, 12 pages of rules + a few datasheets), etc - the idea that each faction can have a different name for "relentless" instead of "relentless" being a key USR that each faction has access to is kind of just silly. As you point out, we'll just be thinking of them in terms of the old rules. "Oh, all is dust? They get a bonus vs single-dmg wounds and relentless" instead of spelling out "they don't suffer the -1 bs penalty when moving". The fact that we continue to think along those terms - because it's easier and more natural - is the reason that this was a (very slight) move in the wrong direction. There's no benefit to having multiple names for the same effect, and there are a few inconveniences. Nothing that will shatter the game, obviously, but it gets a definite eyebrow-quirk from me, considering all of the great moves the game seems to be making for this edition.
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Post by Eric formerly Eric on May 11, 2017 12:52:15 GMT -6
I agree with Joel. I like having a *shortish* list of special rules that go by a common name. It's worked well in magic the gathering for example.
And of course, I'm totally in favor of condensing the number of rules and keeping everything in one codex/handbook. All the supplements released last year were a pain in the ass for the game.
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mike
Butts
Posts: 628
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Post by mike on May 11, 2017 17:52:23 GMT -6
I'm among my people. USR's are generally a good concept and I wish they'd hold on to them. I'm not going to cry over their passing, but I like the way that they streamline the game thematically and give you a shorthand for discussing how units function. The new system is better overall than the one from 5th-7th, but Joel's example with the 1k sons and the 1k different ways to say relentless is exactly the kind of work I don't want to do with this game (I will and that's fine). It also gives you a better chance to name your rules intuitively relative to the mechanics because you don't have to come up with a unique way to say a unit is relentless for each instance.
mcsardo is also right that even with USR's they still would screw up making them simple and intuitive (what the hell does hammer of wrath mean? why does knowing know fear mean something different than being fearless?). The USR's shouldn't be nested within each other/cross reference each other or have long superfluous names. Then beyond USR's there were plenty of SR's scattered to the wind as well.
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Post by Russell on May 11, 2017 17:55:51 GMT -6
but Joel's example with the 1k sons and the 1k different ways to say relentless is exactly the kind of work I don't want to do with this game Hey can I have your minis since you're obviously quitting?
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Post by Russell on May 11, 2017 17:59:56 GMT -6
Oh and also I'm on the fence about USR-gate. I don't like how bloated they got with nested rules. I do think there will be some growing pains but before we know it we'll have every datasheet memorized anyway because we're all just a bunch of nerds.
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Post by Joelercoaster on May 11, 2017 18:29:54 GMT -6
Oh and also I'm on the fence about USR-gate. I don't like how bloated they got with nested rules. I do think there will be some growing pains but before we know it we'll have every datasheet memorized anyway because we're all just a bunch of nerds. Basically this. There are unlikely to be a ton of brand new unit-rules, so much as iterations of what we've already had. A few, like All is Dust, will come into play with the new values (melta now means rolling 2 and picking the best for damage, AiD giving a better sv vs "weak" weapons, etc)... but generally speaking the rules will be more "at hand" than the current "well let me check my 5th core rulebook...." rendition. If giving up official USR's means having a 100% better game system, I'm down.
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jesse
neophyte
Posts: 732
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Post by jesse on May 14, 2017 19:14:17 GMT -6
So, one potential benefit of having USRs is the ability for individual special rules to overrule USRs. For example, it was revealed that Ratlings would be able to snipe independent characters even if they aren't the closest units and it's been speculated that other units would be able do to the same (other Guard snipers, Rangers/Pathfinders, Marine Scouts, Shoota Boyz). If Sniper was a USR it would be easy to have certain characters or wargear ignore Sniper. But if each unit has its own special rules, in order for a character to ignore Sniper, its rule would need to be written in such a way that it's clear that this rule overrules a bunch of other units' individual special rules without referring to any of them by name. The same could be said for rules that ignore Rending vs. rules that ignore any special attacks that on certain roles to hit get bonuses to AP, and so forth.
That said, I don't think the loss of USRs will really be that huge a deal.
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Post by Nick P on May 14, 2017 21:39:55 GMT -6
See but for your example:
"This model may not be targeted by shooting unless it is the closest model even if another model's rules would normally allow it to do so."
Its not as complicated as the internet seems to be making it.
No more "this guy has precision shots"...well what does that mean? It's just "hey this character can target specific models in a unit on a 6" because that's what his datasheet says.
It's basically just a shortcut. Why have a keyword on a profile that has a few sentences of meaning in a different book when you can just...put those sentences in the profile instead?
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2017 5:47:29 GMT -6
In theory I suppose they could have gone the same way as MTG and use both USRs and the description on a dataslate. In MTG any card with space will list the USR, but also its definition.
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Post by Nick P on May 15, 2017 7:16:37 GMT -6
Yeah but MTG is for nerds
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Post by Russell on May 15, 2017 8:27:54 GMT -6
Yeah but MTG is for nerds
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2017 15:43:28 GMT -6
Good news for you USR lovers, turns out Keywords are the new USR, who knew.
This is an excerpt from the Tau spotlight about Crisis suits:
"Oh, and did I forget to mention they have the Fly keyword? This allows them to Fall Back from combat and still shoot at full effect. Brutal! I am loving how these guys play, and they will be scattered all across the tables in T’au armies."
Looks like the Keywords will provide certain mechanical benefits to units that are shared across armies, ala the old USR format.
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