Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2017 15:13:53 GMT -6
So that mini is available May 6, does that sound to anyone else like we might have a new edition of warhammer 40k on may 6th? That was my thought aswell; that or preorders for 8th edition on may 6th. Preorders for the dwarf model are this Saturday, so it seems that we'll know one way or the other very soon.
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Post by Joelercoaster on Apr 26, 2017 15:17:40 GMT -6
I think May 6 is the day I have a boner so hard it kills me.
Aka, it sounds like they're pushing this soon. Soon soon. This summer is a good summer.
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Post by Nick P on Apr 26, 2017 15:22:53 GMT -6
I saw the -3 earlier today, but it's more along the lines of separation of concerns. I fully agree that the lascannon can punch a hole in the wall, but given that I'm behind a wall in the first place should make it harder to know where to place the shot (aka, how cover used to modify to-hit). It also still brings out the idea that units that rely on cover for survival often have low armor for that reason... but if the new AP just ignores both, then you're not gaining a real benefit from cover (which is a situational bonus) compared to a gun that always has a good AP. Bleh, could be reading too much into it, and there are ways to make it work (order of operations could make all the difference... aka look at armor save, reduce by weapons AP down to -, then add any bonus from cover). Shrug. I like the idea of some units eschewing heavy armor for camo, as it in theory should be a different type of survivability (vulnerable to weapons like flamers). And Edit - as I realize there was a whole page of posts after the one I read... Nick, you're right, obvs... unit rules will play a huge part in how this all works. Even things like a flat to-hit in combat we don't have the full story... I hate the idea of a Grot hitting an Avatar as easily as a Fire Warrior, but there could easily be a scaling rule of +X based on the opponents... something? I dunno. Really can only take these at face value, as hard as that is xD Couple things to hopefully ease your mind. 1. Lets assume that if your whole squad is out of line of sight behind that ruin, that indeed, the lascannon doesn't know where you are and can therefore not target you. Makes sense, true line of sight and all that. 2. However, with true line of sight, you can still wound models that aren't completely covered - so you can still target the unit, if 4/5 are behind cover but 1 is visible. You just can't kill the models you can't see. So that 1 dude would take D6 wounds from his lascannon hit, but get a +1 (or +2 for ruins, we don't know how that works yet) to his save. So if he normally has a 3+ (power armor), and in the open only gets a 6+ save vs lascannons (which used to ignore it outright) he now gets a 4+ save because he's behind a ruin (6+ +2 for cover in this assumption). Compare that to 7th edition 40k - where a power armored mini in a ruin targeted with a lascannon also gets - you guessed it - a 4+ cover save as his only hope of survival. 3. Cover doesn't modify to hit, so not sure what you're talking about. It grants you a cover save that is oft ignored because armor saves are by and large better. So now you just combine them, and since vehicles have an armor save jink and the like will be less necessary for survival. 4. Your stealth units will still likely have lower saves in general and rely on their stealth armor/cover saves to survive. Like I said before, what's to stop lictors from having a 2+ save in cover at all times - or a special rule to alter the BS of a model targetting it, or force snap shots, etc? We don't have the whole picture yet. 5. What we know so far is that heavy weapons have high AP, but even standard weapons like flamers and bolters that USED to ignore 33% of saves now ignore 0% of saves. That means cover means more, and lower armor saves still want to hug cover to get better survivability.
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Post by Joelercoaster on Apr 27, 2017 6:50:27 GMT -6
Couple things to hopefully ease your mind. 1. Lets assume that if your whole squad is out of line of sight behind that ruin, that indeed, the lascannon doesn't know where you are and can therefore not target you. Makes sense, true line of sight and all that. 2. However, with true line of sight, you can still wound models that aren't completely covered - so you can still target the unit, if 4/5 are behind cover but 1 is visible. You just can't kill the models you can't see. So that 1 dude would take D6 wounds from his lascannon hit, but get a +1 (or +2 for ruins, we don't know how that works yet) to his save. So if he normally has a 3+ (power armor), and in the open only gets a 6+ save vs lascannons (which used to ignore it outright) he now gets a 4+ save because he's behind a ruin (6+ +2 for cover in this assumption). Compare that to 7th edition 40k - where a power armored mini in a ruin targeted with a lascannon also gets - you guessed it - a 4+ cover save as his only hope of survival. 3. Cover doesn't modify to hit, so not sure what you're talking about. It grants you a cover save that is oft ignored because armor saves are by and large better. So now you just combine them, and since vehicles have an armor save jink and the like will be less necessary for survival. 4. Your stealth units will still likely have lower saves in general and rely on their stealth armor/cover saves to survive. Like I said before, what's to stop lictors from having a 2+ save in cover at all times - or a special rule to alter the BS of a model targetting it, or force snap shots, etc? We don't have the whole picture yet. 5. What we know so far is that heavy weapons have high AP, but even standard weapons like flamers and bolters that USED to ignore 33% of saves now ignore 0% of saves. That means cover means more, and lower armor saves still want to hug cover to get better survivability. Very good points, I'll tack on a touch just to clarify 1/2 - very true, LoS is LoS 3 - I'm talking old school 2nd ed + necro/shadow war rules. Being in cover modifies your chance of being hit, rather than giving you a save (harder to see where to aim rather than blocking damage). That idea is what I meant to reference. 4 - Unit rules will be unit rules. To mimic your example above with a Lictor (low armor + cover bonus). Currently a Lictor gets a 3+ in ruins standing up. That same 5+ in ruins (+2) with stealth (+1) taking a Lascannon shot (-3) gives us a 5+ at the end. This is precisely what I meant to portray - units like Marines that just have good armor now have great reason to hug cover, and still get an equivalent bonus, while models that rely on cover (currently) are so lightly armored (typically) that the AP then just eats into their cover bonus as well. To be clear, this is only a red flag to say that special rules need to be in place for units like this (light armor, cover-huggers). Obviously I can't speak to any rules that are/aren't there, and given that this was *actually playtested* (hurrah!) I'm pretty comfortable that it's been taken into account. 5 - Yep yep... really glad to see even a 5+ flak armor mean something now. That's a huge change to the meta. Saving 1/3 of bodies can be a huge deal when it comes to the slog of holding objectives all game, and I think lightly armored folks are really going to notice this difference.
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Post by Nick P on Apr 27, 2017 7:17:30 GMT -6
Ah I see what you meant. That's how cover worked in Fantasy as well - -1 to BS if in a forest, -2 to BS if behind a wall or ruin/building, -1000 BS if behind a melee (melee blocked all line of sight). Could be cool to see that come back in some form, maybe in addition to having a modified save? So its harder to hit, AND you get a chance at dodging the shot and having it hit the cover around you?
And yes I see what you mean - but again, the only units who we know saves for right now are marines, terminators, dreadnoughts. We can't speculate at what a lictor will have, or what the unit rules might look like yet. But yeah, there'd have to be something on the lictor sheet to help balance it. Lots of wounds maybe, or can assault from deep strike (would be fluffy, considering they always just pop up out of nowhere and start murdering dudes), etc.
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Post by Joelercoaster on Apr 27, 2017 7:47:46 GMT -6
Yeah. Also I don't mean to be lictor centric.. venomthropes rely on cover in the same way, ig scouts with camo cloaks, etc.... Any unit that prioritizes cover over armor is negatively effected by allowing ap to affect cover.
But blah blah, I'm waiting to see the rules. Starting to look forward to this.
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Post by 1D3chan on Apr 27, 2017 8:17:16 GMT -6
Every unit has a poor man's hit and run now: www.warhammer-community.com/2017/04/27/new-warhammer-40000-movement/"If you’re in combat at the start of your turn, you can Fall Back by moving away from the enemy. You’ll lose the ability to advance, shoot or charge that turn, and crucially, enemies will be able to shoot at you! This does, however, open up a vast range of tactical options for armies like the Astra Militarum, who will now be able to effectively deploy in firing lines, with each row falling back from any assaults in good order (if they survived) while the unit behind them fires at the attackers. It goes both ways though – if you have a dedicated assault unit that specializes in killing infantry (like Warp Talons) your opponent will find it much harder to pin them down in combat with heavily armoured units for the entire game."
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Post by rogerspacem on Apr 27, 2017 8:35:29 GMT -6
Okay a AoS rule, bit it's a good rule to have in my opinion. Can't wait for psychic phase! Banking money it being the same as AoS
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Post by Nick P on Apr 27, 2017 8:38:54 GMT -6
Love this - lots of possibilities for strategy with that one, and once again we see how the movement phase is going to be one of if not *the* main focus of the game now. And I'm all about that!
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jesse
neophyte
Posts: 732
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Post by jesse on Apr 27, 2017 8:40:07 GMT -6
That sounds like a massive bonus for large gun lines. Especially Tau. There are times you'd want to throw fifty guardsmen with a priest at a squad to make it go away for the entire game.
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Post by 1D3chan on Apr 27, 2017 9:10:18 GMT -6
I think I see the *basic* plan of 8th Edition now. My guess is, the first thing they did was tone down the most over-powering part of the game: Shooting. They did this by toning down guns.
This then allowed them to remove or change the most easily abusable (at worst...most valuable/strategic at best) mechanics in the game, like Hit & Run and Cover/Ignores Cover. They're only able to do this if shooting is lowered in effectiveness first. Think about it: two of the most sought after and valuable USR's in 7th were H&R and Ignores Cover. Those look to be essentially gone.
I don't think that 2+ cover saves were ever supposed to be as prevalent as they were. Jink jetbikes and Hormagaunts and Cultists etc were not supposed to be getting 2+ and 3+ cover saves most of the time. The mechanic had to be abused to ward off the shooting. The shooting has now been warded off for us, so those are gone.
Well, they're not "gone", they're actually now available game-wide, just in a different form. I don't think disengaging from combat will be as bad in 8th as it would be in 7th, because I think you won't immediately get ripped apart by shooting.
I think this is a really good direction!
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Post by Asyrean on Apr 27, 2017 9:19:52 GMT -6
Every unit has a poor man's hit and run now: www.warhammer-community.com/2017/04/27/new-warhammer-40000-movement/"If you’re in combat at the start of your turn, you can Fall Back by moving away from the enemy. You’ll lose the ability to advance, shoot or charge that turn, and crucially, enemies will be able to shoot at you! This does, however, open up a vast range of tactical options for armies like the Astra Militarum, who will now be able to effectively deploy in firing lines, with each row falling back from any assaults in good order (if they survived) while the unit behind them fires at the attackers. It goes both ways though – if you have a dedicated assault unit that specializes in killing infantry (like Warp Talons) your opponent will find it much harder to pin them down in combat with heavily armoured units for the entire game." Love this article, and love this AoS import. Also, I just have to say, this paragraph in the article made me happy as well: "Other than that, the movement rules are pretty much what you’d expect today – no moving though enemy models, unless you can fly over them, and no walking through solid walls – logical stuff." Walking through walls was always something that irked me. Not that I ran into it at the Dojo, really, but hearing others talk about it, especially Tournament focused podcasters who were outraged during last year's FAQs which ruled you definitively couldn't walk through walls... anyway, I'm just happy that GW called it out deliberately in this article.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2017 9:24:02 GMT -6
What I've seen so far is really good game design. It looks like 8th is trying to emphasis counterplay between players, and that is a great trend.
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cj
neophyte
Posts: 734
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Post by cj on Apr 27, 2017 9:36:44 GMT -6
Regarding the walking through walls, I always thought it made sense to difficult terrain such an action. Basically just seeing how effective they would be at kicking through the wall or having some guy in the ranks with sufficient tools to cut through it.
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Post by Nick P on Apr 27, 2017 9:39:00 GMT -6
HEY GUYS IM USING THE NEW 8th EDITION RULES FOR THE TOURNAMENT GOOD LUCK (just kidding but how fun would it be to mash them up maybe a little)
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