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Post by Joelercoaster on May 7, 2017 21:49:02 GMT -6
A lascannon needing a good roll to gibb a warrior gives me chubbies.
I wonder if high RoF weapons like Assault/Auto-cannons will convert to multi-wound hits? That would be the prime weapon to take down something like warriors (plasma too, I suppose. Maaaybe heavy bolters?).
Not everything can be a multi-wound death machine, though xD. And I don't expect them to be super-survivable against everything, but if they did jump to even 4W in this brave new world, that'd be basically the boost we had been hoping for in terms of survivability (although I'd still love the ability to pay for a 3+).
Anyway. Shrikes coming back? I remember when I could swarm with gargoyles screening Shrikes and it just did dirty things. May need different weapons, but that's chump change compared to actually being able to field all these awesome units and not cry myself to sleep.
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Post by Russell on May 8, 2017 8:28:54 GMT -6
new wound table, neato.
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Post by Nick P on May 8, 2017 8:29:32 GMT -6
Small arms fire www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/08/17794gw-homepage-post-4/New wound table is vastly simplified and I love it- heavy weapons cause more wounds but also now only wound large things on a 3 (or even a 4!) instead of a 2! And infantry having split fire is awesome. It means you don't have to waste shots with any units and now my blaster kabbalite squads make even more sense - 4 splinter rifles at an oncoming infantry squad, a blaster to the face of a vehicle or monster. Nicky like!
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Post by Russell on May 8, 2017 8:33:27 GMT -6
Lascannons wound dreads on a 3+. noice.
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Post by Nick P on May 8, 2017 8:36:33 GMT -6
So now we have more of a complete picture- let's do some comparing between dreadnoughts vs lascannon across editions!
Dreads in 7th vs lascannons at bs4: 6.97 lascannon shots to take down 3 hull points at av12 with any 1 shot having a 5% chance to blow it up instantly.
Dreads in 8th vs lascannons hitting on 3+: 6.35 lascannons to take down 8 wounds with average rolls on damage (3.5 wounds per unsaved wound). Oh and ZERO chance to one shot.
So more or less same survivability on average, but with no chance to one shot and a higher variance on wounds saved (especially with cover) and damage taken.
Bottom line - it takes about the same amount of firepower to take down a dread but you get to be more cavalier with how you use them because they can't be insta-gibbed. Yay!
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Post by Joelercoaster on May 8, 2017 8:38:46 GMT -6
That really shakes up the whole MC dynamic, which is great - big guns are still the way to take them down, but most are wounding on a 3+ rather than 2+... enough of a difference to make up for the multiple wounds, give or take.
Really really really really really want to see some Nid profiles. C'moooon GW!!!
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Post by Russell on May 8, 2017 8:38:57 GMT -6
Yeah I'm still gonna paint all mine anyway. Somehow I have three BA dreads.
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Post by Nick P on May 8, 2017 8:50:11 GMT -6
On average it took almost 8 lascannons to kill a carnifex in 7th...so can we expect maybe 10 wounds to keep it roughly the same as with the dread between editions?
Extrapolating further - it takes 11.11 to kill a 6 wound MC. So in 8th can we expect 14 wounds to keep the same ratio? The article said the largest nids will have a dozen or more wounds so that would be on target. Unless they gave them all 2+ saves, then 12 wounds would be about right.
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jesse
neophyte
Posts: 732
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Post by jesse on May 8, 2017 9:37:32 GMT -6
I think, at this point, the only thing I really need to see is the stats on a meltagun to more or less solidify my opinion of eighth.
It's also not surprising that the new rules seem to be encouraging bigger models since that's seems to be the way AoS goes, encouraging a lot of monsters and monstrous infantry/cavalry (though I think there are some AoS power lists that are just massive, massive blobs of small things).
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Post by Russell on May 8, 2017 9:51:40 GMT -6
I may have missed it Jesse, but what is your opinion on 8th?
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jesse
neophyte
Posts: 732
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Post by jesse on May 8, 2017 10:15:05 GMT -6
It seems like it'll be fine/good, but I'm personally pessimistic about it. I think it'll hurt the Sisters quite a bit (though of course there are always special rules). Most of the rules changes so far seem to benefit monsters (medium, large, and extra-large) and vehicles with lots of guns/hitting power. The new wound chart seems to really benefit Marine stats: S&T4 get significant buffs without any loss while S&T3 only will benefit against S&T5 and now can't be insta-killed as easily and higher S&T stats are a bit weaker (especially against S&T4).
Basically, I haven't seen any rules that have made me more excited about my army, though I have seen some that are encouraging me to dust off the Guard a bit, though it's a daunting project to build up a few hundred guardsmen to finish off that project.
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Post by jefferestinpeace on May 8, 2017 10:24:55 GMT -6
It sounds like gunline armies are going to take a lot more tactical play to make competitive, but could be stellar. We also don't know where points are going to end up here; I imagine there will be significant adjustments there that take into consideration these new changes. Guardsmen might be dropped considerably, allowing you to field even more or something. We just haven't seen enough to make any real assumptions about greater ideas like that.
If I were to guess though, I'd think the guard-specific detachments are going to grant a shitload of command points that can be used for a number of fluffy and powerful boons.
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Post by Nick P on May 8, 2017 11:22:00 GMT -6
It seems like it'll be fine/good, but I'm personally pessimistic about it. I think it'll hurt the Sisters quite a bit (though of course there are always special rules). Most of the rules changes so far seem to benefit monsters (medium, large, and extra-large) and vehicles with lots of guns/hitting power. The new wound chart seems to really benefit Marine stats: S&T4 get significant buffs without any loss while S&T3 only will benefit against S&T5 and now can't be insta-killed as easily and higher S&T stats are a bit weaker (especially against S&T4). Basically, I haven't seen any rules that have made me more excited about my army, though I have seen some that are encouraging me to dust off the Guard a bit, though it's a daunting project to build up a few hundred guardsmen to finish off that project. I think this is a bit of a knee jerk frankly- we know that monsters will have more wounds but that they're easier to take big chunks out of and that they're not just binary in effectiveness ie alive and fully functional or dead and not. I wouldn't say that makes them more competitive by any means, just different. Like I showed above the math actually makes it about the same, it just means that vehicles can't be one-shot anymore. Monsters that weren't flying monsters have long been terrible (barring the riptide and it's ilk) so giving them more survivability vs small arms fire is a fair trade for making heavy weapons potentially much more deadly to them. But also did you miss the part about split fire? All of your sister squads can now target tanks with their meltas while the bolters target infantry. For an army that can take a LOT of mixed squads with 2 special or heavy weapons in each that is an absolute God send. No more wasted shots, period. And every wound you do to a monster or vehicle will make it slightly less effective so every wound counts for something vs only making it worth while if you can kill something outright. Plus don't sister's like flamers and heavy flamers? D6 automatic hits doesn't seem too shabby to me, idk about you. And we still don't know the full picture, points, special rules for each faction and models in each faction, mission types and who will excel at them or the full suite of detachment options and what your command points will do. Sisters can't get worse, same with nids and dark eldar. I'm ecstatic to see what happens to my two under used but favorite armies, I'd have thought sisters players would have been in much the same boat.
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Post by rogerspacem on May 8, 2017 12:10:50 GMT -6
Yeah I agree with what Nick is saying, especially with the last statement. I can't say my armies are getting worse or better, but I'll adjust to whatever rules they throw at us. Personally, I don't see how any army is getting worse, I just see them being more fair to one another. Remember this edition is gutting out (almost) the entire game, so whatever you knew before, just toss it out the window. Take for example my Tzeentch daemons. Sure I can say my daemons are going to get smacked down by the nerf bat pretty hard, so no more 2++ re-rollable saves or minimal 24 psychic dice, but that kinda makes them more appeasing to me. Chaos, especially daemons, is some serious bookkeeping. Most of my games gets bogged down from JUST determining Powers/Rewards, and don't get me started on the Warp Storm and the Psychic Phases. It wasn't really fun to play them after awhile. Awesome to have the power, but not fun when no one else is around to see it happen, or ends up getting bored from me setting up (or rages against my army). So yeah things are going to get nerfed, some things WILL get JACKED UP in power, but the story/fluff/narratives for the armies are going to be the same. More importantly the META is changing! I for one can't wait to see the new builds, and play around with the list building aspects. That's why I'm super excited for this new edition, and why my lord and savior, Tzeentch, is always happy for more change. So take the new edition with a grain of salt, its has been play tested with the best players GW can get their hands on.
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Post by 1D3chan on May 8, 2017 12:13:43 GMT -6
All looks good. It's going to be a lot more balanced. I don't think gun-line armies were really ever competitive in 7th, with the exception of the heretic guard at the end. It was deathstar, free transport or a million unstatic shots.
Based on everything I've seen, Toughness is the real stat that is more valuable now. They will wow us with the 20 wounds and saves, and stuff will definitely die a lot faster, but T6+ all get a lot better in most situations.
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