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Post by Eric formerly Eric on Feb 16, 2017 0:13:08 GMT -6
You pretty much got my list correct.
Playing against ynnarri is definitely fun and tricky. I really had to figure out the best way to attack his army without triggering a staggering amount of soul bursts right back at me. Definitely a unique strategy that adds a different dimension.
I mean, it was fucking unbelievable the way Nick flipped the table on me during my turn.
Id say that the army is still vulnerable during maelstrom games because your strength comes from being tightly packed, which prevents you from spreading out to secure objectives
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Post by Nick P on Feb 16, 2017 8:17:09 GMT -6
I 100% agree, even with 4 units of jetbikes starting out, I did not have the mobility to go after maelstrom objectives, and since its totally random what your objectives are going to be, it can be a super one sided game. I think in straight up kill point games though, or static objective games, this army will do really well.
Your first turn you did a great job of maiming my units without killing them - two immobilized venoms left with 1 hull point each (I mean it was surgical, it was ridiculous), killing off a scatter bike in each of my units significantly diminishing their damage output, etc.
But then killing that reaver squad with your skimmer meant 1. the Yncarne popped up on your first turn giving my army fearless, and 2. the other reavers got to reposition all the way across the board. So that on my turn 1 I had a heatlance unit right in front of your rhino, ready to pop it to trigger more soulburst actions if I could get more units within 7" (which I was unable to do, but it could have been risky for you).
Your turn 2 was the turning point I think - you killed the wraithknight, one of my scatter bike units with your vanguard vets, and the reavers near the rhino - BUT, I had enough units nearby that I got to double tap with almost my entire army, and then on the subsequent turn I was able to kill the vanguard vets, your tactical marines, and your command squad/HQ units all in one fell swoop.
Its definitely a fun army to play with, and takes a steep learning curve to start thinking with portals SoulBursts, and while I don't think my list was particularly deadly (just lucky/a good foil to Erics particular list), Will and I discussed some seriously dangerous combos if you were aiming to take a beat stick list to the ITC:
Detachment 1:
- archon with webway portal
- archon with webway portal
- 5 kabbs
- 5 kabbs
- 6 wraithguard with dscythes
- 6 wraithguard with dscythes
Detachment 2:
- archon with webway portal
- archon with webway portal
- 5 kabbs
- 5 kabbs
- 6 wraithguard with dscythes
- 6 wraithguard with dscythes
Detachment 3 (ITC allows 3 IIRC):
- autarch for reserve manipulation
- 3 scatter bikes
- 3 scatter bikes
- 4 normal windriders
Or something similar. I haven't hammered out the points, but you basically take as many archons with webway portals as possible with minimum troops (5 kabbs are 40 points only) and then max out on dscythe wraith guard. The autarch gives them an almost guaranteed 2nd turn entrance to the game, and then when all 4 units of dscythes land on the board (with no scatter!) they delete a unit each, then immediately soulburst to delete a second unit. 8 dead units, all but guaranteed, on turn 2. Talk about beta strike, jesus christ.
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Post by 1D3chan on Feb 16, 2017 11:50:57 GMT -6
I 100% agree, even with 4 units of jetbikes starting out, I did not have the mobility to go after maelstrom objectives, and since its totally random what your objectives are going to be, it can be a super one sided game. I think in straight up kill point games though, or static objective games, this army will do really well. Your first turn you did a great job of maiming my units without killing them - two immobilized venoms left with 1 hull point each (I mean it was surgical, it was ridiculous), killing off a scatter bike in each of my units significantly diminishing their damage output, etc. But then killing that reaver squad with your skimmer meant 1. the Yncarne popped up on your first turn giving my army fearless, and 2. the other reavers got to reposition all the way across the board. So that on my turn 1 I had a heatlance unit right in front of your rhino, ready to pop it to trigger more soulburst actions if I could get more units within 7" (which I was unable to do, but it could have been risky for you). Your turn 2 was the turning point I think - you killed the wraithknight, one of my scatter bike units with your vanguard vets, and the reavers near the rhino - BUT, I had enough units nearby that I got to double tap with almost my entire army, and then on the subsequent turn I was able to kill the vanguard vets, your tactical marines, and your command squad/HQ units all in one fell swoop. Its definitely a fun army to play with, and takes a steep learning curve to start thinking with portals SoulBursts, and while I don't think my list was particularly deadly (just lucky/a good foil to Erics particular list), Will and I discussed some seriously dangerous combos if you were aiming to take a beat stick list to the ITC: Detachment 1: - archon with webway portal - archon with webway portal - 5 kabbs - 5 kabbs - 6 wraithguard with dscythes - 6 wraithguard with dscythes Detachment 2: - archon with webway portal - archon with webway portal - 5 kabbs - 5 kabbs - 6 wraithguard with dscythes - 6 wraithguard with dscythes Detachment 3 (ITC allows 3 IIRC): - autarch for reserve manipulation - 3 scatter bikes - 3 scatter bikes - 4 normal windriders Or something similar. I haven't hammered out the points, but you basically take as many archons with webway portals as possible with minimum troops (5 kabbs are 40 points only) and then max out on dscythe wraith guard. The autarch gives them an almost guaranteed 2nd turn entrance to the game, and then when all 4 units of dscythes land on the board (with no scatter!) they delete a unit each, then immediately soulburst to delete a second unit. 8 dead units, all but guaranteed, on turn 2. Talk about beta strike, jesus christ. I am not 100% but I don't think you can mimic a Detachment in ITC, regardless of if they are exactly mirror images of each other. So in your list, I don't know if you could take 2 Rebort Warhosts in the same army. Or maybe it's you can't have 2 detachments with the same faction, I'm not sure really but I think it's one of these things. Obviously though, since No Scatter Deep Strike Wraithguard are a thing again, it's going to be a very viable option to some degree. I think having 4, and the bulk of your points, would ultimately limit you in a competitive setting. I especially think it's countered too hard by Magnus and Flying Daemon Prince lists, maybe even the rare flyrant circus list. But at the Dojo yeah I don't think that list could be stopped lol |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2017 11:54:36 GMT -6
"An army may duplicate a single Detachment, one time." So you could run two reborns at most.
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Post by Nick P on Feb 16, 2017 13:26:47 GMT -6
And then you can take the autarch and windriders in a CAD. Though, does the autarch only provide his rerolls for his detachment or the whole list?
But yeah I mean this is a super eggs in one basket army, but for someone who just wants to go to a tournament and say "fuck it" and try to ruin as many people's days as possible, its solid. Not a top table finisher probably, but will stomp enough of the "deathstar" lists.
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Post by 1D3chan on Feb 16, 2017 13:52:24 GMT -6
And then you can take the autarch and windriders in a CAD. Though, does the autarch only provide his rerolls for his detachment or the whole list? But yeah I mean this is a super eggs in one basket army, but for someone who just wants to go to a tournament and say "fuck it" and try to ruin as many people's days as possible, its solid. Not a top table finisher probably, but will stomp enough of the "deathstar" lists. The Autarch's rule applies to every unit in your army, regardless of detachment! It's kind of great. In fact, your army doesn't even have to be bound for it to work. It's one of the rare few. Also, one other thought - as long as the Wraithguard are embarked upon the Raider when they fire, I do not think they would benefit from Soulburst if they wipe a unit, as they are inside a vehicle, even though that vehicle is open-topped. RAW I think they are counted as being off the table except for specific situations. I guess this is another FAQ point though. |
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Post by Nick P on Feb 16, 2017 14:22:37 GMT -6
They're not on a raider, they're just nekit with an archon, dropping in to pew pew and fwooooosh some stuff
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jesse
neophyte
Posts: 732 
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Post by jesse on Feb 16, 2017 18:51:22 GMT -6
The only thing I'd have to say about that list is that it seems like it would be easy to avoid the webway portals until the wraithguard show up. I could be mistaken about how webway portals work, though. That said, it would probably be scary enough that you could use the webway portals to frighten the opponent from taking objectives if you put the portals near them. If you even have to place webway portals on the table...
Edit: The above is nonsense, nevermind. That list would just delete at least 4 units the turn it shows up and probably encourage people to spread their armies out as much as possible to avoid it deleting eight units in one shooting phase.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2017 19:35:14 GMT -6
Web Way Portals just give the unit it is attached too Deepstrike, and the unit never scatters when deep striking. Basically, you'd have 4 units of wraith guard exactly where you need them to be any time. It's not the best iteration of the list though, as i think you can certainly fine tune it a little.
What about something like this:
That's only two detachments, so your even below the limit that some tournaments put in place. That clocks in just under 1800, so you'd still have some room to put upgrades on some of the barebones units. Dropping x1 scatter laser from each squad would free up some points as well. That list can do the same thing, drop down and D-scythe 6 units, but also has enough to survive turn 1-2 until the guard arrive. Depending on the wording for the Ynarri, the wraith host might give the Wraith Constructs battle focus back, and if not it gives some easy re-rolls to the wraith construct's attacks.
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Post by Nick P on Feb 16, 2017 21:58:54 GMT -6
It specifies that any unit taken in a reborn warhost loses both battle focus and power from pain, even from the formations. So if you take that as an allied formation from the CWE book yeah they get battle focus...but then lose Soulburst. So you'd want to take it as a Ynarri formation and abandon battle focus.
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Post by 1D3chan on Feb 16, 2017 22:52:25 GMT -6
Deep Striking wraithguard with D-Scythes on foot with the Webway Portal is kind of known to be a struggle for the Eldar player - because of the nature of template weapons, the rules for firing them and the rules for deep striking.
Basically, because you have to set up your Wraithguard in a tight circle around the Archon, and you can't fire your template flamers through your own wraithguard, it almost always works out where only 2 Wraithguard get to fire - 3 if you're lucky and the enemy unit has a huge footprint - when they arrive from DS. The massive benefit to having Battle Focus on them is that they could spread out before they fired and get all 5 into a position where they can fire.
Now contrast that to having a unit of even 6 or 7 regular D-Cannons coming in from DS, (still at less points than then 5 man Scythe Squad), having them all fire, and then very likely getting a second salvo if you destroy whatever you fire at on the first. So for less points, you're looking at 10 to 20 full strength D Shots from Deep Strike.
Obviously I'm a huge fan of the Scythes and know their potential well - but only getting 2 of 5 them to fire is a huge blow and can mean the difference between hurting a squad and wiping it - especially when there are those rolls where you just whiff that all important 3+ (never seems to happen with 2+).
Or you could just put them in a Tantalus
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2017 22:58:33 GMT -6
You can get three templates on one side with a DS formation that includes a character.  Even with the difficulties of shooting around your own models, your looking at about 3-9 Str D hits (With the nerfed D effect of the scythe, that's 2-6 dead models of just about any kind) from a squad that can land 3 templates. By contrast, your looking at 4 hits with a squad of cannons, and those don't ignore cover. Wall of Death also makes Wraithguard with scythes a terrible option for charging, as the charging unit will lose massive amounts of models on the way in. If you want to do the wraith guard portal shenanigans, I can't really see any way other than scythes. |
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