doubleback
novice
I rock harder than most, yet less hard than some.
Posts: 1,262
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Post by doubleback on Oct 28, 2016 7:38:46 GMT -6
Lets say I was insane enough to start a third army....what's the easiest way to get a basic 30k legion started? Are there options besides basic traitor and loyalist legions? (I know there are no orks....racists)
Basically what advice would you give for getting a playable army on the table?
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30k
Oct 28, 2016 8:00:03 GMT -6
Post by Asyrean on Oct 28, 2016 8:00:03 GMT -6
Hey Eric,
If you don't mind, I'm going to jump on your thread as well as I have a couple 30k Questions too. To the 30k folks out there, if you dont mind:
- In terms of fluff for 30k legions, are there certain legions that only use certain marks of armor? Or can any legion use any type of armor with out it being strange from a fluff point of view? (This isn't a critical question to me, just a curiosity I have).
- I'm curious what books are mandatory for 30k. I know you get them through Forgeworld, but I'm uncertain whether you need to buy just the red books or just the black books, do you need to buy all of them?
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Post by Nick P on Oct 28, 2016 8:17:58 GMT -6
This is my favorite topic of discussion, let me hit you both with some knowledge. Doubleback: Easiest way to get into 30k is, by far, the Burning of Prospero and Betrayal of Calth boxed games. Each is $150, and "technically" a board game, but each contains a shit ton of plastic heresy era minis as well that are identical to the resin ones FW sells, but at a huge discount. Betrayal at Calth contains 30 mark IV marines, 5 Cataphractii terminators, a contemptor dreadnought, and 2 characters - a praetor in terminator armor, and a chaplain (which can easily be converted into any other type of character, like a librarian). If you look at what GW is selling those kits for individually, they should cost $320. But they're for $150. STEAL! Burning of Prospero contains 30 mark III marines, 5 tartaros terminators, and then a Space Wolf and Thousand Sons specific character, and 5 custodes and 5 sisters of silence. So the characters are not usable by other legions obviously, and the sisters and custodes do not have a full army list (yet), so this box isn't as useful as the Betrayal at Calth box if you ask me, but the minis inside are still a steal for $150. Even if you just keep the marines and terminators (which I intend to do when I pick mine up this weekend), its still worth every penny. Obviously the meat of the game is the legions - 9 traitors, 9 loyalist, and then the Black Shields and Knights Errant (precursor to the deathwatch/grey knights of 40k). But, there are also army lists for Heresy era titan legions, Mechanicus, Dark Mechanicus, Solar Auxilla (precursor to imperial guard) and Traitor Cults (dark Solar Auxilla, basically). So there is some variety, and options for non-space marine armies. Asyrean: There are certain legions that preferred certain marks of armor over others based on their tactics of choice - but all legions had access to all marks, so there is absolutely nothing holding you back from using whichever marks you like the look of. Imperial Fists, Iron Hands, and Iron Warriors preferred MK II and MK III because of their seige warfare tactics (MKII and III offered better protection fluffwise, but were less mobile); Salamanders and Death Guard used a lot of MK III as well because of their chemical munitions and flame weapons; Emperor's Children, Sons of Horus, Thousand Sons, Ultramarines, White Scars, and actually most of the legions had a lot more MK IV than MK III, as it was the newest "bees knees" mark and offered almost the same protection as MKIII but with far greater mobility. Traitor legions had WAY more MK IV than loyalist legions, because Horus supplied them first in preparation for his rebellion, but they all had a good mix of everything. Raven Guard started to use the MK VI armor (beaky) more, right around the heresy, as well. As for books, it can get confusing for sure. You need the 40k rulebook, since that's what the main game is based off of, which we all already have. Then you just need your army list rules - so, you have options here: - If you want to get the awesome art, fluff, and background of the main Horus Heresy black books, then you can go that route. Buying all 6 will give you all the legion rules, and the main generic army list, that you need. But it will set you back a pret-ty penny.
- If you want to play a legion that already has rules - ie, any of them but Space Wolves and Thousand Sons - then you want to pick up the 2 red books. Age of Darkness: Legions, and Age of Darkness: Astartes army lists. The former has ALL the special rules, unique characters, unique units, and Rites of War (ie detachment changes) for all of the legions that have been previously released (ie primarchs, unique units like the Red Butchers for world eaters, etc). The latter has all the unit profiles/points values for all the non-legion specific units (ie, characters, tacticals, tanks, dreadnoughts, etc etc). If you go this route, you do NOT need the black books at all
- If you want to play Space Wolves or Thousand Sons, you need to get the Age of Darkness: Astartes army list for the generic units, and then just...wait for Book 7: Inferno to be released, which will contain ALL the SW and 1k Sons rules/units/special abilities/etc.
- If you want to play mechanicus or solar auxilla of any flavor, you just need to pick up the red book for your respective army - titans, mech, and solar auxilla have their own unique "codex" basically, with no fluff but just all the combined rules they've received over the 6 main books.
Hope that helps! Also, its worth noting, the red books are available through the iBooks store in digital format as of July of this year.
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doubleback
novice
I rock harder than most, yet less hard than some.
Posts: 1,262
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30k
Oct 28, 2016 8:31:43 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by doubleback on Oct 28, 2016 8:31:43 GMT -6
That actually helps immensely
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30k
Oct 28, 2016 8:56:04 GMT -6
Post by Asyrean on Oct 28, 2016 8:56:04 GMT -6
Nick - This is awesome. Thank you so much! One more question. Regarding BaC and BoP, if you take all the models and combine them into one singular legion, skipping the Space Wolf/Ahriman/SoS/Custodes, do you have any rough idea how many points this would be worth in total? Fuzzy math is fine. Also, using JUST the units that come in these two box sets to put towards a legion, is this a solid enough army? I mean, there are a lot of tactical marines in there, dreadnoughts and terminators, the latter two being less than powerful in 40k. Just curious how solid of a list can be made with these models. PS - Actually I already got my copy of BaC and BoP [pre-ordered] So, next I need to figure out what legion I want to do and get the corresponding book. (So far, Thousand Sons are the leading contender.)
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30k
Oct 28, 2016 8:59:05 GMT -6
via mobile
Asyrean likes this
Post by Eric formerly Eric on Oct 28, 2016 8:59:05 GMT -6
So as someone who is just starting this, it's important to choose a legion before doing too much else. Picking up BaC is a good first step, and you will probably use all the models in it with any legion. But otherwise, pick a legion because they each have some specific rules, units and also ARMY BUILDS. If your army is led by a Praetor or similar character/primarch, then you have access to a Rite of War, which is a rule governing how your army is built. For example, Orbital Assault says that your whole army must arrive from deep strike. Or Pride of the Legion allows you to take Terminators and Veterans as Troop choices! I found 1d4chan.org/wiki/Warhammer_40000 pretty helpful when picking a legion. Also, Battlescribe can help you map out what kind of army you want to take.
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30k
Oct 28, 2016 9:07:42 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by Eric formerly Eric on Oct 28, 2016 9:07:42 GMT -6
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Post by Nick P on Oct 28, 2016 9:30:11 GMT -6
Asyrean:With the BoP and BaC sets, you're looking at ~2000 points of legion models. 60 marines, 10 terminators, a contemptor dreadnought, and 2 characters. That is a phenomenal starting point for 30k, you shouldn't need much more than that in terms of infantry to play. You will want to expand into transports and tanks and the like though - adding things like landraiders/rhinos/drop pods, or a Spartan or Sicaran Battle Tank, or even other types of dreadnought like the Leviathan or Deredeo. By and large, terminators and dreadnoughts do not suffer in 30k the same way they do in 40k - they have different options and stats and special rules, and are better suited for their role than their 40k counter parts. To give you an idea, I have 4000 points of Thousand Sons right now, consisting of: - 10 veteran marines
- 10 veteran marines
- 5 heavy marines (missiles)
- 5 special marines (plasma)
- 5 special marines (melta)
- 5 command squad marines (combat shields, power fists)
- 10 cataphractii terminators
- 1 praetor in terminator armor
- 1 librarian in artificer armor (conversion from BaC)
- 2 contemptor dreadnoughts (bought a second on eBay)
- 1 deredeo dreadnought
- 1 leviathan dreadnought
- 1 sicaran battle tank
- 1 spartan assault tank
I bought BaC, an extra contemptor online, an extra 10 MK IV marines and 5 terminators online, and then bought the 2 dreads and 2 tanks from FW/eBay. So starting with BaC AND BoP is an ideal starting core, that you can expand based on your chosen legion by adding unique units, the primarch, upgrade kits, etc.
So pick a legion (I'm betting you're going Ultramarines), look at what their unique units/characters offer them (by checking out 1d4chan's tactical page for 30k, or by getting/reading the Red Books) and then choose how you want your army structured. The various rites of war rarely alter your ability to take infantry - they mostly revolve around making veterans/terminators troops, assualt marines troops, giving them drop pods instead of rhinos, etc. There are some that let you take an ALL tank army, or an ALL dreadnought army, or add mechanicus units to your list, etc. but they are rarely used, and suitable for really only 1-2 legions fluffwise.
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30k
Oct 28, 2016 9:45:42 GMT -6
Post by Asyrean on Oct 28, 2016 9:45:42 GMT -6
Asyrean: So pick a legion (I'm betting you're going Ultramarines), look at what their unique units/characters offer them (by checking out 1d4chan's tactical page for 30k, or by getting/reading the Red Books) and then choose how you want your army structured. The various rites of war rarely alter your ability to take infantry - they mostly revolve around making veterans/terminators troops, assualt marines troops, giving them drop pods instead of rhinos, etc. There are some that let you take an ALL tank army, or an ALL dreadnought army, or add mechanicus units to your list, etc. but they are rarely used, and suitable for really only 1-2 legions fluffwise. Actually, no. Heck no to Ultramarines. Only because I have enough UMs in 40k, I really dont want to paint any more blue marines. Further, I really want a traitor legion that I can use in both 30k and 40k (especially whenever CSM get their big update). Anyway, top priority is Thousand Sons (I've always liked warrior/wizards) after that... I'm leaning towards (in no particular order) Death Guard (love the paint scheme, so/so on Nurgle), Iron Warriors and Night Lords. Alpha legion is of course awesome, but I feel like lots of people run them? Word Bearer's might actually be my #2 choice behind 1k Sons and would be interesting/ironic if my two main armies are Ultramarines and Word Bearers. Anyway. - Next dumb question: Regarding the tanks/transports that you bring up. Do the 40k vehicles translate to 30k? (Proxying aside)
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30k
Oct 28, 2016 11:07:14 GMT -6
Post by Nick P on Oct 28, 2016 11:07:14 GMT -6
Awwww Yisssss
Obviously thousands sons are the best legion of all time and everyone knows it, but the other legions you listed are great too. I too LOVE the deathguard color scheme, and if the weathering is done properly, its phenomenal looking. Alpha Legion is probably the "best" legion in terms of rules right now, so they do have a ton of players. Night Lords are cool and fluffy, and have some awesome models, but its more painting blue for you and are borderline the same scheme as ultramarines, but with more blood splatter.
Word Bearers are awesome, they're the true architects of the heresy, are drastically different in terms of painting from your UM, and are easily translated to 40k as a CSM list of chaos undivided as well since they have possessed, summoning daemons, chaos dreadnoughts, etc. Iron Warriors are also awesome, and easily painted to boot! Plus Perturabo is one of the coolest damn models in the game. You really can't go wrong - just pick a legion that speaks to you fluff wise, because 30k gaming is 99% about the narrative you're building with your army/opponent in each game. Win or lose, if you're staying true to your legion's fluff and narrative, you'll always always have fun.
As for tanks and such - they translate perfectly to 30k. For the most part, the 30k versions are identical in rules/stats, they just usually have more options (like volkite, phosphex, etc in addition to the standard loadouts). You don't have to have the 30k versions of rhinos, predators, land raiders, etc. Technically the 40k versions would have just started production, so they would have been available but rare. I do think that the non-30k versions kind of break the suspension of disbelief, but, its totally valid and usable.
But shit man, the deimos pattern rhinos/predators and phobos landraiders are just so. damn. cool.
On the other hand, drop pods are unchanged, and certain variations of landraider like the MKIIB are 90% 40k kit, and only have different sponsons, so are totally convertible with some creativity.
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