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Post by 1D3chan on Oct 2, 2016 10:22:23 GMT -6
October Tournament Registration: www.squareup.com/store/dice-dojo-warhammer-40k-tournaments EDIT: (You may have to copy and paste it) CST Bro's, Recently, I was handed over the job of setting up 40K Tournaments at the Dice Dojo on a monthly or bi-monthly basis on their behalf. I'm looking for feedback or comments about what would cause you to come out for a day to play 40K in an organized environment - what would cause you to participate, more importantly, what would cause you to stay home?Days/Times? Price of Entry? Rules? Prize Support? Painting/Basing/Hobby Scores? Army Composition Scores? Restrictions? (Allies, Forgeworld, Super Heavies/Gargants, Flyers?) ITC rules? This is data collection for me - it won't make or break anything. Thanks in advance
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Post by Eric formerly Eric on Oct 2, 2016 18:49:15 GMT -6
This is great, dude. Honestly, I didn't attend the only 2 40k tourneys I saw posted because I didn't have a complete army or was out of town. But I would definitely be down now. In terms of logistics, Saturday late morning would probably be best, since we'd have the most time. I think that $10 is pretty reasonable, and a prize could be like a semi-neutral new kit/box-set (ie. Kill-Team) or a gift card.
In terms of rules: I'm new and unfamiliar with the tournament scene. But I think the competitive environment is pretty limiting for attendance's sake, as I know plenty of people have problems with balance in competitive 40k. So perhaps try some semi-competitive/casual rules that ban certain types of builds. For example: 1000 points, CAD only, 0-1 allied detachment, no LoW. Or like a 2v2 team tournament. Maybe allow a couple of those new formations released to buff chaos marines, blood angels, etc. I think you want rules that allow CSM, DE, Nids, and Orks to compete reasonably well. For missions, you could use ICT, Eternal War or even some of the campaign missions that Will put up. Like 3 round-robin games or something.
As I think you listed, you could award bonus points for different army builds. That may be easier than banning certain compositions, since some codexes are just inherently worse. Maybe like like tiering each codex from worst to best and awarding extra points based on tier.
I think awarding points for top 3 painted armies is a good idea. Just make it more of a tie-breaker than a game-changer.
TLDR: I would prefer a tournament without an emphasis on game-breaking deathstars, superheavies, decurions, and crazy alliances (ie. Eldar Bikes with Riptide Wing), and all codexes are fairly competitive. I wouldn't mind having a competitive tourney every once-in-awhile though.
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Post by Dan K on Oct 2, 2016 20:14:51 GMT -6
I've been to a bunch of the dojo tournaments and generally they have been fun. One major issue has always been that they were seemingly always set on the days when the suburban stores had big events going. I think a good thing that was done before was a varied point court from month to month. I think limiting (1/3 of army max) or excluding LOWs is a solid idea. The only real issue is preventing someone from bringing a Imperial Knights army, but I cannot really foresee that happening at a local tournament. Generally I don't have an issue with FW stuff, so long as its not a LOW. I've never been one to put much into painting/basing. What would keep me home is if it was required. Flyers are part of warhammer now, I don't see a reason to put a restriction on them at this point. Whatever is decided about the rules for the game should be disclosed beforehand. I disliked showing up to an event and being surprised by what the objectives were going to be.
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Post by Joelercoaster on Oct 2, 2016 22:25:58 GMT -6
As someone who is generally inactive in the "competitive setting", I suppose I can at least tell you what keeps me away from it, and whether that's worth anything or not, well.... shrug?
Step one, is I'm, unfortunately, just not free on weekends. Yay job?
Step-more-important, because even if I were free, my "real" armies are both "on the struggle-bus" in terms of the meta. Dark Eldar and Tyranids are not exactly top tier competitors in terms of what they can bring to the table. Not helpless, but it tends to be an uphill struggle. Dark Eldar have access to Eldar allies, but at that point you honestly are better off bringing DE allies to Eldar for a WWP (99% of tactics used there). Both have "more competitive" builds, but those tend to be things that I have little interest in playing (ie, I didn't get into Nids to play all Flyrants all day). TL;DR - to even try to compete with a "competitive" crowd, at the very least I have to try bringing a list that I basically just wouldn't have fun playing, if I can find a way to have fun with these armies at all.
For me, it's also a time investment. I've moved to smaller games, 1000-1250, as a reasonable level. I can finish up (at a very casual pace) in a few hours, have fun, and at the end of it I'm about happy to be finishing up. Playing three of those games in a row would straight drain me beyond my current energy levels for the game. And add another 500 points to each of those games? That's not a clock I want to fight. I say this fully realizing that by nature of a tournament you need to be ready to play multiple games, and time limits/etc are necessary to keep the day flowing, I'm just "that guy" in this case.
I can say, though, that a more limited, hobby-focused event would probably hold more draw for me. I think mandating fully painted everything can be hazardous to getting enough people in the door, but a sub-prize or "real" points boost for having a nicely painted army (because we like pretty models) would be cool. Or maybe a conversion contest, or something to just say "Hey, props for doing cool things there". By 'more limited' I mean more limiting allies, 34billion formations, or some of the more crazy things that have popped up. It's hard to know where to draw the line, especially as most people have their own idea of where that line should be. In part it's just difficult because of GW's "gradual release" model, leaving a number of armies perpetually in the dust of the newest hotness/format. Unfortunate.
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Post by Asyrean on Oct 3, 2016 8:59:48 GMT -6
Hey Madison,
I think this is great. As a new player to 40k (only playing just over a year), I have to say that I want to try my hand at RTT's and maybe even a GT someday. Tourney's aren't the main draw for me in this hobby, but it is something I want to experience at least once or on a irregular basis (regarding GT's). Certainly a regular tournament at the Dojo would be something I would be very interested to participate in. That said, as for my thoughts, I think it's a split between Want and Need.
Want: Similar to what a the folks before me have said, I like the idea of a tourney being more of an opportunity to play many enjoyable games of 40k in a single day. Therefore, more of a fluff kind of event with the focus not being that everyone is trying to bring their hyper competitive cheese. Something where good painters are rewarded and hobby is rewarded. An event where everyone, regardless of skill or model inventory can have an enjoyable day and not just get their ass kicked with every game. Further, I generally prefer that rules as written, per-GW are used. I'm not a big fan of ITC rules or other, outside individuals or third parties tweaking the rule set. So, my ideal tourney is where GW rules are used, without modification and folks bring generally fluffy lists. Wishful thinking I know, but that's my "want." Further on the Want side, and in terms of days, Saturday Mornings would also be the best for me.
Need: Above being said, and per my opening to this email, I do want to try a big GT eventually, perhaps once a year or so. Something where I travel to a GT and make a weekend out of it. Therefore and contrary to what I said above, it is probably better for me if the Dojo tourneys are basically following ITC rules and missions so I can get more of a feel/understanding for how these events work. It would be better preparation for whenever I finally go to a large or larger GT.
What would keep me away: Basically nothing. Although at this point (and this goes contrary to my first Want section noting Hobby focused events) if painted armies are required, I'll not be able to attend. I just dont have enough models painted. Sure, I'm working on that, but I move at a glacially slow pace, so if it's mandatory that grey plastic stays home, then I stay home too.
Otherwise, that's it!
TL;DR: I'm up for whatever and will try whatever. I'm just happy to give a tourney, even just an RTT, a try because I've never done it before. That said, if painting is mandatory, it will be a long while before I can participate due to the mountains of grey plastic in my To Do pile. Further, Saturday Morning tourneys are my ideal time.
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Post by 1D3chan on Oct 3, 2016 11:04:47 GMT -6
This has all been super helpful. Thanks guys. If you haven't chimed in yet, please feel free to do so.
A couple of quick points:
1) In my experience, Tournaments at the Dojo have never been "competitive." I couldn't even put them in the same category as ITC, Adepticon, GT's (which really do not exist anymore), LVO, No Retreat, ATC or the like. Dojo Tournaments are not a substitute for those, so if those aren't your thing, (which really they aren't anyone's thing I've met here), I wouldn't be turned off by the DD Tournies. Some lists are good/solid, of course, but you are not seeing 30 Warp Spiders, 3 Riptides, Iron Hands Smashfuggers Wolf Star White Scars, etc
2) As much as I'd love to, I couldn't make painting a requirement here. It would alienate too many people and we wouldn't have a tournament at all. I would, however, offer very real bonuses for having a painted army. I'm trying to figure out how to do this the best. I'm thinking a straight up VP for a fully painted army per game, just like another tertiary objective (LineBreaker, First STRIKE, Warlord and Fully Painted). Or, give a prize to the game winner and prize to the "best army" winner which includes painting and composition. Same prizes, equal weight.
3) I'm thinking 1,000 points. No SH's/GC's/LoW's. This seems like an obvious choice
4) I'm majorly on the fence about creating restrictions for army composition, because the game is so odd right now in terms of formations and detachments. On one hand, I love the CAD but it hurts some armies that actually depend on Formations. On the other hand, Eldar, Tau, Necrons, Daemons and Space Marines don't need their formations to play well at 1,000 points at all - they just push them over the top. We could do some sort of modified setup where some races get formations and others must CAD it, or do a Highlander Format (CAD, every entry is 0-1 so you cannot have duplicate entries, breeds variety but is also limiting). I would give some armies exceptions like Orks, DE and CSM. I don't know, this one is tough.
Thoughts? By the way, as of right now I have October 22nd (Saturday) booked for the first one. Will make an event page for it etc soon. We'll need 4 players min to run it, I think 8 players max. Cost will be low
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Post by Asyrean on Oct 3, 2016 12:04:49 GMT -6
2) As much as I'd love to, I couldn't make painting a requirement here. It would alienate too many people and we wouldn't have a tournament at all. I would, however, offer very real bonuses for having a painted army. I'm trying to figure out how to do this the best. I'm thinking a straight up VP for a fully painted army per game, just like another tertiary objective (LineBreaker, First STRIKE, Warlord and Fully Painted). Or, give a prize to the game winner and prize to the "best army" winner which includes painting and composition. Same prizes, equal weight. Just my two cents, but a full victory point, per game, going to a painted army seems kind of OP to me? Maybe 1 VP added to your total score? Or, in the event of ties, victory goes to the painted army? I dunno, I'd say just let any and all formations fly, but maybe restrict having duplicate formations? At least to start out with and then tweak as necessary? Seems like there would be an awful lot of exceptions and bookkeeping if you don't. Anyway, just offering some feedback. Otherwise, again, I really like this. Unless you make a rule that Ultramarines auto-lose, I'm pretty much on board with whatever you decide.
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Post by 1D3chan on Oct 3, 2016 14:23:43 GMT -6
Just my two cents, but a full victory point, per game, going to a painted army seems kind of OP to me? Maybe 1 VP added to your total score? Or, in the event of ties, victory goes to the painted army? I dunno, I'd say just let any and all formations fly, but maybe restrict having duplicate formations? At least to start out with and then tweak as necessary? Seems like there would be an awful lot of exceptions and bookkeeping if you don't. Anyway, just offering some feedback. Otherwise, again, I really like this. Unless you make a rule that Ultramarines auto-lose, I'm pretty much on board with whatever you decide. That's very interesting that you feel that's OP - noted! It's important to me that the player who paints their army is rewarded, not that the player who doesn't paint their army is penalized. It's a touchy subject I feel. I might just keep them separate - do 1 prize for winner and 1 prize for 'best army' (theme, paintjob and composition). I think I like the no duplicate formation/detachment rules. I can hardly ever seen that being a problem. Ultramarines never auto-lose, they're quite literally the Emperor's Finest.
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Post by Asyrean on Oct 3, 2016 14:30:35 GMT -6
Again, no experience playing in a tourney here, so feel free to disregard. Just my feeling is that, a shockingly high percentage of wins go to the person who gets First Blood, and so, hypothetically, this could be a similar thing if say a person with a Painted Army coincidentally goes up against 3 opponents (or however many games there are in a day) who all dont have painted armies. That's 3 extra VP's right there. Anyway, what do I know, just a gut reaction.
Thanks for putting this together! I've marked the 22nd and when the official invites go out, I'm going to try to make it!
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Post by 1D3chan on Oct 3, 2016 14:35:23 GMT -6
Again, no experience playing in a tourney here, so feel free to disregard. Just my feeling is that, a shockingly high percentage of wins go to the person who gets First Blood, and so, hypothetically, this could be a similar thing if say a person with a Painted Army coincidentally goes up against 3 opponents (or however many games there are in a day) who all dont have painted armies. That's 3 extra VP's right there. Anyway, what do I know, just a gut reaction. Thanks for putting this together! I've marked the 22nd and when the official invites go out, I'm going to try to make it! You'll love 'First Strike' then First Strike is a VP awarded to an army if they are able to completely destroy 1 enemy unit on their Turn 1. It replaces First Blood. It can be scored by each opponent once in their first player turn of the game. It evens out a VP that is very lopsided. Alternative is also to add 'Last Laugh', VP awarded to the player who has the last complete kill of the game. Both are used quite often in official tournaments, First Strike much more so.
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Post by Asyrean on Oct 3, 2016 14:45:38 GMT -6
Interesting.
I've also heard of Solo Blood, which I think Iron Halo uses, and some other Midwest tournaments. Basically, VP goes to whomever can destroy one of their opponent's units, and in the next turn, the opponent does not succeed in destroying on of your units.
I think I like the First Strike better than Solo Blood. Even Solo Blood sounds a little lopsided to whomever goes first.
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Post by Dan K on Oct 3, 2016 15:37:28 GMT -6
1 VP pergame would be okay if we use malestorm rules, if you do eternal war then I liek the idea of 1 VP or maybe 2 VP total per day. The dojo can hold 12+ people for a tournament without much trouble.
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Post by mcsardo on Oct 3, 2016 21:24:35 GMT -6
You could always do some mitigated nerfs to formations like no more than 2 formations/detachments selected from no more than 2 codexes, to at least keep out superfriends. 1000 seems a little low to me. I might prefer 1250. But at a lower points costs, you're probably not having more than 2 formations anyway. Though, I don't think our local meta is particularly egregious at combo hacking.
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Post by Nick P on Oct 4, 2016 8:02:26 GMT -6
I think this is getting a bit too far into the weeds - a lot of what I'm reading is "I want this to be fluffy, not competitive" and "lets restrict LOW and formations to make army X better". In my mind, its a tournament. Meaning, competition. Meaning, bring the best army you can build and see what happens.
Granted, there are some armies that are on a different playing field than others - but I think simply not having an 1850 tournament limits that significantly. Suddenly you can't bring the dick-punching Eldar list or Necron list, because you can't fit in ALL the cool toys at 1500 or whatever. Limiting it to 1 LOW or something like that might make sense - since Knights and Wraithknights are one of the key ways to combat Riptide spam and the like.
Here's my take:
Days/Times? - Saturdays work best for tournaments; you can start early enough that it won't take all day, and since it Saturday you can drink before/during/after if you like.
Price of Entry? - $10-15 seems reasonable to me. That's what people pay for Magic events and the like.
Rules? - I prefer 1500 point tournaments, using maelstrom objectives. It creates the most balanced games, since A) 1500 is where they playtest codexes and B) maelstrom means you don't need to be the killyest army in order to win. MSU and movement count for something.
Prize Support? - Just take the winnings and put it towards store credit for 1st/2nd or best painted or whatever. That way people can get what they want, and the money stays within the Dojo for their trouble.
Painting/Basing/Hobby Scores? - YES. A lot of complaining about painting scores in this thread, but guys, this is 50% of the hobby. Your armies should be painted - or it should at least be something to strive for, and having a deadline like a tournament to get X or Y unit painted is the best motivation. Giving 1 point per round (maelstrom) to a fully painted (ie, 3 colors up) army should be standard. With a vote/award for best painted.
Army Composition Scores? - Maybe. If we decide to leave it wide open, so people can bring whatever they want, we should have some kind of comp score so people can rate the opponent's list from 1-5 in terms of 1=I hated this list and would never play it again and 5=fluffy fun list, would play again no questions asked. Keeping in mind that it doesn't have to do with the attitude of the player, but the list itself - I could be the jolliest mother fucker in the room, but if I bring jetbike spam with a wraithknight and allied corsairs, fuck me.
Restrictions? (Allies, Forgeworld, Super Heavies/Gargants, Flyers?) - You either have to force everyone into the narrowest of army-builds, by going 1-CAD 0-1 Allies, to limit shenanigans for the upper tier codexes, or just let everything fly and add a comp score to even things out. I am of the opinion that 1 CAD + 0-1 Allies and 1500 seems to curve the game quite a bit, since it limits the craziness of the Eldar Warhost and Necron Decurion somewhat. The only issue is that certain armies, like Skitarii and Harlequins, can't bring a CAD. And some armies like GSC basically have to rely on their special detachments in order to be effective.
I think FW should be legal as long as it has 40k official rules and the player has the rules on hand (ie not pdfs). Flyers are standard in 40k, but I don't think we should use the Death From The Skies rules since it just complicates things and adds a good ~30 minutes to each game.
ITC rules? - I'm not a huge fan, but if people like them then I can always adjust. I think if we follow ITC rules it will take care of a lot of the "restrictions/army comp/rules" issues since its pretty standard, but likewise we could just go with, say, the Adepticon 40k Friendly rules as a basis and build out from there. Actually, I vote we just use the Adepticon 40k Friendly rules. Its the best event at the convention, hands down.
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Post by Nick P on Oct 4, 2016 11:06:42 GMT -6
Again, no experience playing in a tourney here, so feel free to disregard. Just my feeling is that, a shockingly high percentage of wins go to the person who gets First Blood, and so, hypothetically, this could be a similar thing if say a person with a Painted Army coincidentally goes up against 3 opponents (or however many games there are in a day) who all dont have painted armies. That's 3 extra VP's right there. Anyway, what do I know, just a gut reaction. Thanks for putting this together! I've marked the 22nd and when the official invites go out, I'm going to try to make it! That's also like saying "what if someone goes up against 3 players who just leave a single AV10 vehicle in the open in the middle of the board so they can get first blood". Its totally hypothetical, but unlike controlling other players' tactics, you have 100% control over whether your army has paint on it. Just my thoughts; painting is a huge part of the hobby, and this will force people to do it.
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