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Post by Russell on Jul 8, 2015 22:42:20 GMT -6
Alright, so Nick and I got together this evening and had a small game with the new fantasy system. We used the points system outlined by Nick earlier using the following equation (order of operations, motherfucker): Braveryx(Wounds+Attacks). Double the value if the unit has the 'monster' keyword.
We played 1000 points, which allowed me to bring:
2x15 gor
10 beastigor
3 minotaurs
2 razorgor
1 great bray shaman
1 wargor bsb
And Nick, you'll have to reply with your list. He did play warriors of chaos, so there was no shooting to speak of. We called the game after four or so turns when it obvious the beastmen were going to lose. Some highlights and observations:
-On subsequent turns, Nick summoned a unit of hounds, then a chaos sorcerer. I was able to summon a chimera, then again when it died in close combat.
-Buffs from the heroes in the army allowed the gors to rush up 9" as a base move, and run and charge the same turn. They could potentially move 27" in a turn. The banner (think the old beast banner from the BM book) allowed the gor to wound on 2+ in a couple rounds of combat.
-Since there was no shooting, we got into close combat very quickly at the bottom of turn 1.
-Summoning is both incredibly easy and incredibly powerful.
-Apart from summoning, magic is almost a non-factor.
-Buffs from heroes and synergies in an army are a force multiplier that simply cannot be ignored when building a list.
So, as you can imagine, fantasy in it's previous iteration is dead and gone. Lamentable, sure, but I don't think AoS is the worst thing ever made since Hitler. As I'm sure one can imagine, the game will quickly fall apart without some kind of balancing mechanic. The points system we used tonight is a step in the right direction. We also agreed that summoning, in it's current unlimited form, is a bit too much. I suggested limiting the summoning for the entire battle by a percentage of the points being played (ex - we would only be able to summon 250 points of reserves in a 1000 point game). The old strategy of the movement and magic phases I think will be replaced by maximizing buffs of heroes, proper target selection and unit placement during deployment. Yes, I know two of those existed in 8th, but the choices required are not the same.
One of the coolest parts of the 'new' army lists is that most things are now totally usable. I used Minotaurs for the first time since NDG and they were freaking great! Nick also used some dumb stupid chaos unit no one ever used and it did some serious work. Additionally, with the removal of initiative and tweaking of equipment 'loadouts' makes taking great weapons much better than before.
That being said, the gimmick rules are fucking stupid. We were locked in combat for most of the game, but I think that was a result of our army selections. I'd guess that a 'mixed' army of shooting, melee, with some heavy hitting monster support yielding a pretty fun game.
All in all, it wasn't bad. I think it'll get better once we lock down some house rules and relearn all the unit abilities. I'd play again, for sure. Don't let the doom and gloom of warseer / dakka / youtube weenies / all of the internet shape your opinions of it. It's worth trying out since the cost of entry is nil.
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Post by Russell on Jul 9, 2015 0:19:39 GMT -6
for reference: this fucking neckbeard crybaby. skip to 8:41 if it doesn't start there.
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Post by Nick P on Jul 9, 2015 9:37:58 GMT -6
Holy fuck, I can't even watch that video, it made my penis go inside out. I think I'm mormon now somehow, and everything tastes purple. WHAT DID YOU DO TO ME Piggy backing off of Russell's post - I'd agree with everything he said, more or less. We were pretty gentlemanly with the summoning mechanic, but some WAAC neckbeard or Dex could easily have been like "ok cool, here's 50 Chaos Knights" instead of "10 neutered warhounds". (just kidding Dex, heart you) So the summoning mechanic needs to be either replaced with a house rules "hero ability" to keep the balance, or some kind of limiting factor either in terms of the number of points per turn you can summon or the total points in a given game you can summon, depending on game size. I'm used to having no shooting, so that part didn't bother me so much - but to Russell's point, the game could very easily become monotonous without it, with both armies just mashing together in the middle. I think if we had played a larger table, or a different deployment, we would have seen some more tactical decision made - but on a 4x4 with standard deployment, you more or less just saw us mirror units against each other and run full tilt to the middle. I love the abilities of the heros and BSBs to act as force multipliers - you have to be very tactical with your deployment and movement in order to maximize their utility, and I'd even go as far as to say that heroes aren't intended to be the unkillable beatsticks that they once were - I'd almost have been better off keeping mine OUT of combat, just to sit in the backfield and direct the underlings (as per actual real warfare). It was a lot of fun to play, and I would definitely play again and continue to tweak the balance a bit. The points system we used (from MWG Steve originally) actually felt like a pretty decent starting point, but it can be improved through playtesting for sure. Oh, and here was my 1000 point list: - Chaos Lord (mark of Nurgle)
- Exalted BSB (mark of Nurgle)
- Festus
- 18 Warriors (halberds, because they're freaking free and therefore DUH) mark of Nurgle
- Gorebeast chariot (nurgle...you see where this is going)
- Dragon Ogre Shaggoth (this guy has NEVER seen the board before yesterday!!!)
The marks don't do anything anymore (except for chaos lords and daemon princes), other than add the "nurgle" keyword to the model's description - so there's no inherent buff to the units, but there is some synergy with regard to certain magic spells and same-marked hero abilities, as well as with the Warshrine that I will not be buying. For example, one of the magic spells targets all units within 6" - and they all take D6 mortal wounds, but if the unit has the nurgle keyword, it heals D3 wounds. That kind of thing.
The timing of planting your banner and charging is pretty key from what we saw yesterday - I made a few misteps and ended up just getting charged by Russell's whole army at once; but the great news is that, under the new combat system, that didn't really effect the game except for giving russell priority in picking which units would attack and when. Its no longer the "well, this game is now over, let's reset" that it once was.
I'm excited to play this some more, and to try out my Lizardmen as well (but only once we fix summoning...since the lizardmen might as well be undead, since slann can just summon any unit in the game on like a 6+ on 2D6...which is insane)
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dex
neophyte
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Posts: 739 
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Post by dex on Jul 9, 2015 9:51:02 GMT -6
All the large monsters/characters are on a 10+ just a heads up. A few notes from my games were to try it with the just drop whatever (between friends) and its enjoyable. Wounds + attacks * bravery makes casters very undercosted also support characters. It makes certain monsters way over priced. Remember there are no more 2+ saves, or even 3+ as far as I can tell. Monsters go down to goblins really easily in this game.
How did you guys like rolling a 4+ then a 4+ then a 4+ to block all game?
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Post by Nick P on Jul 9, 2015 10:49:53 GMT -6
There are a decent number of chaos guys with a 3+ - mostly the cavalry, and a couple special characters like Archaon and Crom.
Honestly it was varied enough (4+ to hit, 3+ to wound; 5+ to hit, 4+ to wound; 4+ to hit, 2+ to wound) and with different rend and damage values between the two armies, to keep it interesting.
Yes, the casters and support heroes are cheap using that formula - but they also act mainly as force multipliers, or as "reliably cast this one mediocre spell" each turn sort of things, rather than the powerful magic users or beat stick combat lords they used to be, so it works out. Hell, my chaos lord got stuck in with some gors and almost died - a freaking chaos lord! That would never have happened in 8th.
The monsters might be a little costly, but I think it comes down to strategy again - yes, a horde can take down a monster handily (my chaos warriors killed Russell's chimera twice over), but my shaggoth got stuck in to some gors with another unit as backup, which worked well - and then stuck into his minos, which again worked well. Deploying them last to keep them in the most opportune charge lane is key, and maneuvering so your opponent can't horde up against them is key.
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Post by Nick P on Jul 9, 2015 10:51:15 GMT -6
Oh and FYI, not all the monsters and characters are on a 10+. My chaos lord can summon a single unit of Slaves to Darkness every turn on a 4+ - and chaos lords, sorcerers, heroes on daemonic steeds/manticores, warriors, marauders, chaos knights, hounds...all fall into that category.
Russell's was on a 9 to summon his monster, granted, but he was getting some buffs to that from the surrounding terrain, so there are ways to mitigate it.
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dex
neophyte
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Posts: 739
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Post by dex on Jul 9, 2015 11:19:31 GMT -6
Nick whats a good day this weekend to play some AoS
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Post by Nick P on Jul 9, 2015 11:38:48 GMT -6
Possibly Sunday!
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Post by Nick P on Jul 9, 2015 14:56:02 GMT -6
Hey russell, do you have the link to the points list from Warseer you were talking about?
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Post by Russell on Jul 9, 2015 16:57:32 GMT -6
looks like you found it already
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Post by Russell on Jul 16, 2015 0:14:06 GMT -6
Nick and I had another game this evening. I picked up the boxed set this weekend and threw together the Khorne half to face the grey tide of Nick's Lizardmen. I'm really torn. As far as the battle is concerned, we kinda just moved our models forward then rolled some dice. Not trying to brag, but I totally won.
The models are, and I say this without hyperbole, unmatched by any company currently pressing out plastic dudemans. The rules come nowhere close to doing the models justice. Don't get me wrong, I really really want to enjoy this game. Unfortunately, I think I'm looking for something a little more tactically engaging. It's a decent way to put some sweet models on the table and roll some dice. Apart from that, it's sadly not much else.
One of the things I really enjoy about WHFB and 40k is that, after a game has concluded, we usually going into a sort of post game analysis. We hash out all the tactical decisions we've made and run through how things could have gone differently. None of that really happened in our two games, mainly because I don't think either of us felt the game was tactically engaging.
Now, I hope this is just the beginning of a ruleset that will grow into something that I can love and look forward to playing. I won't turn down the chance to play the game again, but I don't know if I'm going to go out of my way to find a game.
In the meantime, I've got a killer start to a Daemonkin army.
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Post by Nick P on Jul 16, 2015 7:09:35 GMT -6
#daemonkin4lyfe
I agree with everything Russell said - its not a *bad* game, its just not what I'm looking for in a game - there isn't really any challenge or strategy to speak of; you just kind of end up mashing your dudes together in the middle, and then hoping you roll well enough (since everything in the game can kill everything in the game equally well).
My thoughts to Russell and Jeff last night were basically this - I don't know a single gamer that plays games in the hopes of leaving skill at home and turning their brains off; people play these games to test their skill against opponents, and that requires a certain amount of structure and balance that GW clearly didn't want to include.
But, yes, the minis are absolutely ridiculous. Completely puts every other mini company to shame - there are no equals in crispness, complexity, and detail of the sculpts. Plus, you know, Skull Lats and Fist Mouths.
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Post by jefferestinpeace on Jul 16, 2015 7:10:48 GMT -6
From an observer's perspective, it was interesting to watch. It was a very small game, but I don't really know if things would have been entirely different at a larger scale. The most tactically challenging thing was deciding which group to activate first in combat. This is a pretty intriguing aspect of the game that can yield a lot of groovy moves and clever switcharoos, and even affect listbuilding, but it's also a little thin when you consider randomized going first every turn and enough magic juice to get everyone into combat instantly.
It also seemed a bit slap-fighty on every side. Except for the Stegadon. When your unit's combat prowess over another unit has no effect on gameplay, it takes out a huge rock/paper/scissors aspect. Now, arguably, this is problematic in 40k, but it makes sense. In AoS, everything's just as good at killing everything. It's very weird, if you think about it.
But then we played Conquest and all was good. Russell, if you ever want to play Imperial Assault skirmish, I will lug my shit around for that. It's one of the most tactically conscientious games I've played. Alternate activations FTW.
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Post by jefferestinpeace on Jul 16, 2015 7:11:49 GMT -6
And yeah, to echo the model thing, if they come out with dwarves riding fire lizards or something, well fuck my wallet.
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dex
neophyte
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Post by dex on Jul 16, 2015 8:27:26 GMT -6
I've had my fourth game this weekend and did a mid size one. I moved up he moved up things went squish. That was it.
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