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Post by mcsardo on Jul 10, 2017 8:00:59 GMT -6
Yeah it's pretty nasty. Though thr second list is 8 drops (forgot I split up the black knights to squeeze in another bike). The only other list I see getting so few drops other than knoghts is a harlie +wraithknight or Yncarne list (6 drops).
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Post by Nick P on Jul 10, 2017 8:50:33 GMT -6
I am trying to get my Ynnari list down to 6 - but I just keep trying to use venoms instead of starweavers, and they're so expensive. So far its like 8-9 again, which isn't terrible, but not great - though, that many blasters/dark lances + a wraithknight AND going first would likely be overkill so I get it.
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Post by Nick P on Jul 10, 2017 8:53:11 GMT -6
Just had a thought, I can build a 3 drop Nid list at 2000 - Heirophant (1800 points) + malanthrope (90) + 27 termagants (108). Yay?
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Post by mcsardo on Jul 10, 2017 9:36:39 GMT -6
I think that's why many want changes to the deploy first/ go first mechanic...
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Post by rogerspacem on Jul 10, 2017 9:57:07 GMT -6
First List: Contains 7 drops. Gun Knight, Azrael, rhino (with both dev's or have azrael in one and one dev), drop pod, dark shroud, Black Knights, and B. Knight Apoc. You have a decent chance of going first.
Drop Grav: I like it. You got the firepower. That's a decent vehicle killer (excellent marine killer), granted you are hitting on 4's (minus the 1 marine), but that's still 20 grav shots. It could work, but maybe having a captain might help. Still we need to try this out.
Dev's: Having two missile launchers and 2 lascannon I approve. Camping in the rhino and springing out first turn (or second depending), i'm assuming near azrael so they can re-roll their hits. Otherwise the sigum could help a bit. Still I think dev's are the way to go for space marines in general in terms of foot sloggers.
Azrael & Dark Shroud: Auto-include. enough said. :-D
Black Knights & Apoc: I say its a good counter against drops to screen your knight, rhino, and azrael. They haven't lost their touch in this edition, are pretty beefy bikers that can output the hurt. However, I'm not convinced about the Apoc. The healing the Apoc provides is good, but to revive a model on a 4+ with 1 wound doesn't seem to cut it for me. However, I didn't try out Apoc's in this edition, so maybe I'm wrong. Guess I'm just uncertain about him.
Gun-Knight: A gun-dam monster. Still I agree on your statement. Imperial Knights in the game range drastically for me. Either first turn they are monsters...or just a crater. Just Remember Darkshroud and Azrael CAN'T protect him (nor give him re-rolls), and the B. Knights can only prevent drops against him for so long (probably only for turn 1). Otherwise abuse that terrain as much as you can. You only need to peek him to fire, and try to gain that cover bonus.
Alternations: Pondering on this idea, but you can always drop the B. K. Apoc and drop the Icarus autocannon on I. Knight to get a rhino and 5 scouts with bolters/shotguns. It will give you more bodies to cover the field, and a place for azrael to hide in. Giving you 6 drops in the end, and a safe place for azrael to be in if you don't get first. Otherwise if you do get first regardless you got scouts to grab a far away objective and hide, and a rhino to move for objectives, block drops, or tank overwatch. It will solve your dilemma of not having enough bodies on the board. You will lose a little bit of firepower (not much really), and lose a means to bring back your B. Knights. Also I noticed you have 9 points flying around, boy upgrade them rhinos! Give them an extra storm bolters both otherwise Super suit up that single rhino with a hunter killer missle and storm bolter. It's extra needless fire power, but if you got the points spend them! Cause a x2 rapid fire 2 rhino can deal more damage to hordes than you think.
List 2: 8 Drops. You got x3 razor backs, x1 rhino, x1 drop pod, x1 dark shroud, and x2 different units of Black Knights. Okay chance of going first (depending who you face).
Azrael & Dark Shroud: See top.
Drop Grav: See top, but are you planning to put captain in here? I'm assuming yes to get accurate shots, but want to be certain.
Dev's: See top.
Tacts and Razors: Now I'm kinda debating about this selection, but if I correctly guess their function. You plan to push these models up to make use of the plasma (two shoots isn't bad, but I'm assuming NEVER overcharging unless desperate.) Then next turn pour out the tacts to secure objectives or more daka against hordes? I assume the lascannons go on the bigger targets and plasma might do the same or shot the next closest unit to make use of its 4 plasma shots? Well the plasma shots might get you 1.5 wounds (assuming this is shot at marines) or 2 wounds on average. The lascannon will most likely do something both only 1 shot apiece hitting half the time, chances are okay. Still against hordes these dudes will be swarmed and will fall apart, and if your dudes inside will mostly like be killed off. Unless you plan to castle up for a moment and have them fire their lascannons instead?
B. Knights: As mentioned above, but now you got two units? Is it to cover more of the board, or to make a better screen against drops?
Thoughts: With 8 drops I see you castling up, to make use of your lascannons shots and your dev's that pop out of tanks. You got 7 lascannons and 4 missiles which can put the hurt on big models, and the grav will work well against inf. still most of your shots will be hitting on a 4+, azrael helps a lot, still you won't be doing as much damage as you plan. For hordes, I'm not certain. I think you got enough potential to push back the wave for a little bit. You definitively have way more mobility than the first list which is good. Pondering this one, but razor backs with assault cannons? Doesn't have range, but if you are playing objectives than having a mobile gun tower will be pretty good. Still you only save 30 points, but get 36 str: 6 Ap:1 D:1 shots, this will shred through hordes pretty easily. guants will explode and orks will drop if painboy isn't nearby. Not sure what else you can invest those points into, maybe a couple more marines for your grav. drop to keep them alive a little longer? Still I think the list overall is good. Need to see it in play to get a better gauge.
As to which to use, that's on you. They are both respectable good lists, but I can't say which will do better. If they went head to head than I think List 1 will win. If the knight or whoever pops your transport with dev's inside than I can see the drop grav come in and ready to fire at the devs that came out. That will cripple your firepower drastically. List 2 will deal with the drop grav with B. Knights units, but you only got a few things that can harm the knight, which is a major problem. At this point List 2, is depending on just trying to stay alive and score points, but if the mission is kill points than list 2 will just lose. If malestorm than it might pull out in front, depending on the "heart of the cards". If the mission is both kill points and malestorm I think list 2 is beaten. Thinking about it now, List 2 major weakness is those devs. You got them all in one basket if you are trying to hide them in the rhino. If you spread them out you got a better chance, but you can bet that knight and drop grav. is going to come after them hard cause that's where most of your fire power is at. Other than those two devs squads, you got the drop grav which can do some damage against the knight, the captain (assuming he charges in and can land some hits), and three razor backs with a lascannon apiece (most likely hitting on 4's.) Still this is assuming these two lists went head to head. You can't rely on seizing because its only a (1/6) chance of getting (1/3 with a re-roll).
Hopes this helps!
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Post by rogerspacem on Jul 10, 2017 9:59:33 GMT -6
I think that's why many want changes to the deploy first/ go first mechanic... Yeah kinda in agreement on that as well. The idea isn't bad on paper, but alpha strikes still have a lot of power. Maybe having a bonus to the roll to determine first turn will be better than opposed to flat out just going first.
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Post by rogerspacem on Jul 11, 2017 22:44:00 GMT -6
mcsardo Good Game sir, but I admit I can't find any reference to the dark shroud's ability to effect models within its base or its actual model. Rules as written it just says within 6" of this model. I guess so long as any model are within 6" from any part of the model it should still work. Forum if I am wrong can you please state which page in the rule book where the aura ability is clarify? Thanks.
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Post by Nick P on Jul 12, 2017 7:00:01 GMT -6
They have a rule in the BRB or the FAQ, I forget which, that specifies that AOE abilities also buff/can include as the target the actual model with the ability itself. So like a venomthrope counts itself as -1 to hit, as does a malanthrope; the space marine captains reroll 1s count for him as well, the Swarmlord can target himself with his Hive Commander ability, etc.
So yes the dark shroud does effect itself with its aura.
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Post by rogerspacem on Jul 12, 2017 8:10:41 GMT -6
They have a rule in the BRB or the FAQ, I forget which, that specifies that AOE abilities also buff/can include as the target the actual model with the ability itself. So like a venomthrope counts itself as -1 to hit, as does a malanthrope; the space marine captains reroll 1s count for him as well, the Swarmlord can target himself with his Hive Commander ability, etc. So yes the dark shroud does effect itself with its aura. I understand that. Let me rephrase myself, where does the aura's 6" bubble originate from? From the base of the model (like what you would do for shooting) or from the tip of the model itself (e. G. The dark shrouds front grill or one of its side fins). Dark shroud and a few other models have bases so I'm curious where you start the bubble from.
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Post by Nick P on Jul 12, 2017 8:28:31 GMT -6
Some skimmers/flyers specifically mention measuring distance from the hull - even if they have a base. This goes for shooting from/at the model, measuring if someone is in 1" for combat, and all abilities/special effects/psychic powers.
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Post by rogerspacem on Jul 12, 2017 8:40:32 GMT -6
Okay it's a rule I over looked. Thanks good sir for clarifying that!
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Post by Nick P on Jul 12, 2017 8:48:57 GMT -6
Yeah its weird this edition because 99% of the rules are on the datasheet, but there are like 1% of rules hidden in little text boxes around the rulebook that people are missing lol
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Post by mcsardo on Jul 12, 2017 9:04:48 GMT -6
Nick, I remember that being correct, but I can't seem to find it mentioned on the datasheets. Do you happen to remember where in the core rules it says that?
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Post by Nick P on Jul 12, 2017 9:25:08 GMT -6
I know for things like Raiders and Venoms, it actually does specify on their datasheet that ranges are measured to their hull instead of their base. If there is not a similar rule for the darkshroud or whatever its called, then you just measure to the model as per the rules - which can be hull, base, whatever.
There is no specific rule anymore that says "measure to bases only" or "ignore bases from now on" - so you measure to whatever is closest. For things like Flyers, this is really important - you *can* measure the base, instead of the hull itself unless otherwise specified.
For the darkshroud, measure from all of it - if you had to use the base, then technically the model could never be charged because you can't get within 1" of the base due to the hull.
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Post by mcsardo on Jul 12, 2017 9:36:05 GMT -6
So, I think I've been playing this wrong (measuring from hull). On page 176 of BRB it says “Distances in Warhammer 40,000 are measured in inches (") between the closest points of the bases of the models you’re measuring to and from. If a model does not have a base, such is the case with many vehicles, measure to and from the closest point of that model’s hull instead.” Eldar tanks have a rule that specifically supervenes this, the darkshroud does not. I think this is probably an oversight, but RAW suggests that Roger is correct and the aura measures from the base and not the hull of the darkshroud (even though it makes the aura fairly small given the length of the darkshroud) This also seemed to be the reaction of another 40k group I asked online about it. Compare: to I imagine that RAI is that darkshrouds should have a similar rule, but in the absence of a specific rule, I think BRB has to take precedence. Also note: Ravegers and Venoms do not have the "hovering" rule in their datasheet
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