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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2017 8:09:43 GMT -6
Hey Guys, I've played several games with the cult thus far and plan on doing a fairly big over haul to my list and model collection. Namely, I've found that the standard infantry in the army are the best performers by far and that the more "elite" units (I.E. Aberrants) and heavy armor are a lot of points costly fat I think I can cut out. Every game I've played the two Leman Russes I have been bringing definitely play an important role, but that role could easily be filled by more infantry with Heavy weapons. The Aberrants have just consistently under performed as they are a low model count unit that is easily killed by STR 8 or higher weapons. All of that said here is the 1500 Point List I plan to work towards, let me know what you think (I'm particularly interested to hear from people that have played GSC or played against my cult.)
Cult Uprising Detachment
Lords of the Cult (Command) Patriarch [Mastery Level 2] Magus [Mastery Level 2]
Brood Cycle Formation (Core) Acolyte Iconward Purestrain Genestealers [x20 Genestealers] Metamorph Hybrids [x10 Metamorphs w/ Talons] Acolyte Hybrids [x10 Acolytes] Acolyte Hybrids [x10 Acolytes] Acolyte Hybrids [x10 Acolytes] Neophyte Hybrids [x10 Neophytes, x2 Grenade Launchers, x2 Seismic Cannons] Neophyte Hybrids [x10 Neophytes, x2 Grenade Launchers, x2 Seismic Cannons]
Subterranean Assault Formation (Auxilliary) Primus Metamorph Hybrids [x6 Metamorphs w/ Claws, x4 Metamorphs w/ Whips] Acolyte Hybrids [x5 Acolytes, Heavy Rock Saw] Acolyte Hybrids [x5 Acolytes, Heavy Rock Saw] Acolyte Hybrids [x5 Acolytes, Heavy Rock Cutter] Acolyte Hybrids [x5 Acolytes, Heavy Rock Cutter]
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Post by Eric formerly Eric on Jan 6, 2017 8:50:25 GMT -6
If you are going for 20 genestealers, why not do the first curse? Also, has cult ambush been interpreted to not count as moving for the sake of heavy weapons? Cause those seismic cannons are great, but I feel like you'll be snap firing a lot. Otherwise it looks great. Good amount of acolytes in subterranean Uprising. I guess there's a lack of sky fire, but what can you do.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2017 10:08:19 GMT -6
If you are going for 20 genestealers, why not do the first curse? Also, has cult ambush been interpreted to not count as moving for the sake of heavy weapons? Cause those seismic cannons are great, but I feel like you'll be snap firing a lot. Otherwise it looks great. Good amount of acolytes in subterranean Uprising. I guess there's a lack of sky fire, but what can you do. I could definitely run the 1st curse, but I'd have to drop 70pts of something else to do it. The Brood Cycle requires at least one squad of Purestrain. I've noticed that the Stealers with their 5++ save make a great mini-death star alongside the Patriarch, and in the Brood Cycle they get to benefit from the 24" 6+ FnP bubble the Iconward throws out. I may switch it to a First Curse at some point, but I'm not sure whether the FnP or the random mutation is better, considering I just want the big brood to be a durable "body guard". I've also considered breaking it up into x1 10 man squad for the Patriarch, and x2 5 man squads to skirmish around the battlefield. You don't con't as moving when you roll 3-6 on the chart as you "set-up". On a 1 or 2 though you have to walk onto the table, so it'd be snap shots. Atleast that is the general consensus until GW FAQs otherwise. IMO Flyers are always going to be a hard unit to take out for GSC as they aren't really a gunline army. The only good guns for taking out Flyers really are either the Seismic Cannons or Autocannons, and both of those are hard to get in any serious volume. Goliath Rock Trucks are probably the best solution to Flyers, and once I bump the list up to 1850 I plan on taking several. You can purchase the Rock Truck as dedicated transports and then just not deploy in them so you can still Ambush. 3-4 Rock Trucks firing twin-linked autocannons at the Enemies flyers should be able to take them down after a few rounds. FMCs are a little harder, but its only really Hive Tyrants or Daemon Princes that pose any really threat to the GSC in that category.
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Post by rogerspacem on Jan 6, 2017 18:56:40 GMT -6
Hey will,
You are right. Troops is the route to go. I do suggest not taking rock cutters and saw. I believe those are the toughness test else instant death correct and the other is armor bane? If so I think they are worth too much for what they do. The better route is too summon them onto the field. You just want bodies because most of your army can rend. If you need them you summon them.
Going with the detachment is a solid choice. Especially sub. Assault. You want more metamorphs in that formation as they are a very strong tool either taking down tough troops or vehicles with their claws.
As for a.a. honestly gsc is not great at it, but considering you can remove yourself from the board (unless that squad is wiped) is your best defense against flying. The only ones that can cause you problem are the ones that can hover, heldrakes, or Eldar due to vector dancer. Otherwise you have solid board control.
You are correct. Come a 1850 point list your trucks' autocannons are going to become your very close and personal friend. If I'm right those trucks are about 50 points, but you get a transport that has a twin link autocannon. That's about 7 trucks with autocannons. That's pretty dang good.
Seismic cannons are the best. Super good, but again they fall (at least to me) into the if you need it summon it. Otherwise they are great if you a 5 on the ambush chart.
I'm with Eric as well, when you can, stick with first curse. It's a mini deathstar that redeems genestealers and makes their papa nid proud. Granted always great if you can get a six (or get the trait that allows you to choose an ambush result...meanimg the sixth result), however just getting a result 3 or higher on the ambush chart is worth having that group around. No one wants to be pulled into that formation unless it's a death star itself. Not only that +2 cover save (while in cover) is nothing to squeeze at.
Still your list is a good list, but again I suggest no rock cutters and saw. They just cripple you.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2017 4:35:09 GMT -6
Still your list is a good list, but again I suggest no rock cutters and saw. They just cripple you. I just have to disagree. Its 25pts per weapon, which is bit pricey, but the squad carrying the weapon is dirt cheap and you can "reinforce" the weapons back using the detachment rules. For 65pts you get an MSU style unit that is capable of dealing with pretty much any threat in the game. Its been a reoccurring issue in the games I've played with the GSC that I've needed to rely on rolling "6" far to often, whether rolling for the Summoning power, the charge from assault ambush effect, or even just rending. Over the course of those games I've simply noted that needing those sixes so bad is a serious handicap. As such, I've tried to minimize the need for "6" as much as possible in my current and future lists. The Broodmind discipline is a great psychic discipline, but it does have some stinkers in it (I.E. the witchfires), and banking on rolling Summoning just isn't reliable enough in the Cult Uprising Detachment IMO. By contrast Telepathy and Biomancy are perfect fits for the magus and patriarch respectively. Shrieking entrenched units is a great option for the Magus, and Iron Arm makes the patriarch all but unkillable. Rending claws are likewise great until you don't roll any rends, but the Heavy mining weapons really help make up for that by gurenteeing you'll have some way to consistently cut through armor and meqs/teqs. I've yet to be able to field the four squads I want to, so this is all still theory hammer, but I should get in a game next week using the 4 heavy mining weapons and will be able to add some more feedback.
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Post by rogerspacem on Jan 7, 2017 8:02:07 GMT -6
Alright. Granted my experience draws on battle reports and reading the book, but maybe it was just bad luck on the players that used them. I eagerly await to hear your input after your game.
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Post by Nick P on Jan 7, 2017 8:13:37 GMT -6
I'm in 100% agreement with will on this one. For how inexpensive the units are, having the weapons be 25 points is worth it- especially in MSU you have to look at the whole package, not just individual upgrades in a vacuum.
But I do think that more metamorphs with claws are worth testing. The s6 rending just seems waaay too good to pass up.
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Post by rogerspacem on Jan 7, 2017 8:23:27 GMT -6
I'm in 100% agreement with will on this one. For how inexpensive the units are, having the weapons be 25 points is worth it- especially in MSU you have to look at the whole package, not just individual upgrades in a vacuum. But I do think that more metamorphs with claws are worth testing. The s6 rending just seems waaay too good to pass up. Even taking the step back to see the whole army in play, still kinda has me questioning the rock cutters/saws idea. Again maybe it was just bad rolling when I saw them in action, which has me bias on not using them. For metamorphs, having those claws seem to be a solid choice, however, I'm been questioning making the squad half claw and half whip is worth it. Having 2 guys roll at init 6 while the others attack with claws. IDK will what's your input on this concept (half whip and claw meta)
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Post by 1D3chan on Jan 8, 2017 23:42:42 GMT -6
When thinking about the list you posted and the list I faced, I think that the list you posted is even more threatening. But I also think it's even more dependent on the first turn going "to plan" and has less room for a first turn that doesn't go exactly as planned. I truly think that the GSC needs an anchor - it needs something conventional when the otherwise very un-conventional army doesn't perform above the bar you need it to.
If you did face a list with *a ton* of Armor, or worse, Flyers, and say you did get a couple good CA rolls and took out some vehicles, if that list hits back and wipes out the squishy threats, it will be too uphill for you. Whereas with 8 Autocannon TL shots, you can start grounding flyers, making them jink, stunning vehicles etc. I think that the Genestealer Mini-Deathstar is your anchor and while it's very good, a bad psychic phase or perils and it's just another paper target.
Like you said, it's a luck army to begin with to an extent and you're trying to mitigate that, but in my opinion it's more conservative to have some units that aren't based on luck only and have a 14/13 AV value and 8 shots a piece. I guess in summary, you're now moving into even more of a "risk big, win big, lose big" area
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Craig
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Post by Craig on Jan 9, 2017 10:48:23 GMT -6
I'm still working on my GSC army as well and I would say that in general I would agree with Will on his new list. What I love about this army is how balanced it is. Going infantry heavy has a huge advantage against a lot of armys; however there will be hard counters. I'm personally going with the Neophyte Cavalcade simply from a fluff standpoint and an unwillingness to paint all those models in a Brood cycle. Being a Nid player I've had my fill of painting 50-60 troops.
I have a rules question for you guys (Will and Madison in particular). I'm thinking of putting together a mini death star unit comprised of a 6-8 man Aberrant unit from the Subterranean uprising joined with the HQ formation Broodcoven. In the SU rules it states that any unit joined by a Primus rolls 3 dice for cult ambush. Does not state where the Primus must come from; so would this be legal?
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Post by 1D3chan on Jan 9, 2017 11:00:19 GMT -6
I'm still working on my GSC army as well and I would say that in general I would agree with Will on his new list. What I love about this army is how balanced it is. Going infantry heavy has a huge advantage against a lot of armys; however there will be hard counters. I'm personally going with the Neophyte Cavalcade simply from a fluff standpoint and an unwillingness to paint all those models in a Brood cycle. Being a Nid player I've had my fill of painting 50-60 troops.
I have a rules question for you guys (Will and Madison in particular). I'm thinking of putting together a mini death star unit comprised of a 6-8 man Aberrant unit from the Subterranean uprising joined with the HQ formation Broodcoven. In the SU rules it states that any unit joined by a Primus rolls 3 dice for cult ambush. Does not state where the Primus must come from; so would this be legal? Will would know but i'm 97% sure yes
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Post by Eric formerly Eric on Jan 9, 2017 11:10:32 GMT -6
RAW, this is fine. They haven't FAQd it yet afaik.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2017 11:55:35 GMT -6
I have a rules question for you guys (Will and Madison in particular). I'm thinking of putting together a mini death star unit comprised of a 6-8 man Aberrant unit from the Subterranean uprising joined with the HQ formation Broodcoven. In the SU rules it states that any unit joined by a Primus rolls 3 dice for cult ambush. Does not state where the Primus must come from; so would this be legal?
This is one of those murkier rules debates/questions that seems to keep coming up with different ruling from GW. So the rule from the Sub. Assault says the following: " Meticulous Planner: If a unit in this Formation has been joined by a Primus, you can roll three dice instead of one when rolling on the Cult Ambush table for this unit, and select any one of the results." Going on what is written there alone it seems that if you joined a Broodcoven to a unit from the Sub. Assault it'd benefit, but, GW has actually ruled the opposite way in similar situations in the past. They may have addressed this issue in the most recent FAQ with the following question: Q: Do rules applying to ‘the unit’, such as those from Formation special rules (e.g. the Skyhammer Annihilation Force), or unit wide special rules such as Dunestrider from Codex: Skitarii apply to any attached Independent Characters? A: No. The Formation special rules themselves do not apply to characters that join the Formation (unless specifically stated otherwise), although they may confer other special rules which do apply to characters that have joined units, such as Stealth or Stubborn. Appears that GW's intention with the meticulous planner special rule was to allow the Primus to ambush with a unit, whether that extends to other ICs that are joined to the unit is unclear. Just talk it over with your opponent's until an FAQ/Errata comes out is my recommendation for now. I always lean on the side of caution, and try to use the official FAQs as guidelines so my own personal ruling was to not allow any ICs other then the Primus (As it was specifically mentioned in the Special Rule) to benefit from the 3d6.
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Post by Nick P on Jan 9, 2017 14:01:03 GMT -6
I would argue that the FAQ makes the RAW case to use primus' in that formation even stronger, as it says "unless specifically stated otherwise", and the formation rules do say "joined by a primus" not "joined by the primus from this formation".
I agree that this is likely not GW's intention, but until they FAQ it I fully support players getting that benefit for such a risky, luck reliant army.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2017 20:39:34 GMT -6
I got that game in against Eric with the heavy weapons. Here was the list I brought:
++Cult Uprising Detachment++
+Lords of the Cult (Command)+ Patriarch [Mastery Level 2] Magus [Mastery Level 2]
+Brood Cycle Formation (Core)+ Acolyte Iconward Purestrain Genestealers [x10 Genestealers] Metamorph Hybrids [x5 Metamorphs w/ Talons] Acolyte Hybrids [x5 Acolytes] Acolyte Hybrids [x5 Acolytes] Acolyte Hybrids [x5 Acolytes] Neophyte Hybrids [x10 Neophytes, x2 Grenade Launchers] Neophyte Hybrids [x10 Neophytes, x2 Grenade Launchers]
+Subterranean Assault Formation (Auxilliary)+ Primus Aberrants [x4 Aberrants, x2 Pickaxes, x2 Hammers] Metamorph Hybrids [x3 Metamorphs w/ Claws, x2 Metamorphs w/ Whips] Acolyte Hybrids [x5 Acolytes, Heavy Rock Saw] Acolyte Hybrids [x5 Acolytes, Heavy Rock Saw] Acolyte Hybrids [x5 Acolytes, Heavy Rock Cutter] Acolyte Hybrids [x5 Acolytes, Heavy Rock Cutter]
+Brood Kin (Auxilliary)+ Leman Russ [Exterminator Autocannon, x2 Multi-Meltas, Lascannon] Leman Russ [Exterminator Autocannon, x2 Multi-Meltas, Lascannon]
All in all, I was really happy with that list. I smashed a pretty solid Decurion list, bringing him down to just a handful of models before we called the game. There was some poor rolling by the crons for sure, but I think even if he'd been rolling closer to average I still would have been able to pull ahead. The Rock Saws and Rock Cutters are 100% worth the value. When whole squads of acolytes couldn't tear down even one warrior, the saw would come in and cut down 1-2. The Ability to inflict instant death at AP 2 makes them a great purchase IMO. I also got to cut a Ghost Ark in half with a giant buzz saw, that's the coolest thing to imagine. I think I want to work towards a list similiar to the above one I played against the crons, but drop the Aberrants in favor of 15 more Acolytes for the Broodcycle. Fleshing out those 5 man squads can give them a little more survivability on turn 1 and when they charge in I think.
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